47th Infantry Division Sniper School 1988

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Gary

That was a great story!

more than likely ole "One Eye" was a Chippewa Indian, or Ojibwe, to use my native tongue. If he was from the northern part of Michigan, he may have been a part of my tribe! Or, possibly, the Bay Mills tribe.
 
Let see what all else I can remember.

Selection: I was a walk on, meaning that you showed up on the first day and if they had room for you you could get in I had to to this twice before I got in. I was not in a sniper duty position (as I mentioned my unit was disbanding and If I wasn't in some school or another my responsibilities entailed bringing out footballs and flags to the post teams. While that was a slackers dream, I at that point was motivated to become a super soldier). I had a personell action request (da 4570?) that was approved and said that I met all the qualifications. Whick to my knowledge included: Passing PT test, Qualified Expert with m16a2, Secret Security Clearance and No bar to reenlistment as well as 12 months remaining active duty time. I don't think my previous experience had any bearing on my selection as I was a walk on.

<p>
The facilities were renovated basic training baracks in the Harmony church section of Ft Benning. It was a Huge section of white building that were only occupied when the natational guard came to train. Sniper School occupied 3 of the 100 or so of them. They were located next too and shared a dinning hall with the 75th Ranger Regiment (trng and HDQRS). I think the location was chosen as it was very close (easy walking distance) to a thousand yard range.

<p>The Cadre was a mix of people and tought at Ft benning part time and traved and put on short courses overseas (Germany, Korea etc) I believe about half had served as scout snipers in Iraq. And all had served in sniper duty positions. It is an exceptionally small community within the amry (meaning the ones who actually serve in a sniper duty position) and they all know each other and are hand chosed and tested by the other cadre before they become part of the team. It is also a static job meaning they will not get orders to go anywhere else once they are assigned unless they request to stop teaching.

<p> I believe the ammo budjet was unlimited we had long days and around a 12 person class size. When we shot there was often a 1 to 1 student instructor ratio (mind you half the students were down range raising and marking target boards, from behind berms). Like Mr. White about half was on field craft and half was on marksmanship. The first week consisted of long days outside at the range and in the woods. The nights consisted of weapons cleaning, gillie suit construction and classes. One thing different from Mr White was some familerization traing with new technoligy (often in those classes at night the first week). We were expected to become radio experts, gps experts, range finder experts, and glid experts (laser painters). One of my instructors used to say that the deadly person in the millitary is one highly motivated sniper school graduate. Not only for the psy aspect of sneaking up and taking out their leaders and disheartening the enemy but also for the ability to sit and hide for possibly days in a position far behing enemy lines that he snuck into with a singars radio. Becuase from that radio he could call in air strikes, arty and andy thing else like naval gun fire. Addmititly the airforce and scouts as well as others do that king of think mostly but it was an added bonus for the sniper to be able to do all of those things as well, including painting a target. Familiarization with that equiptment and those techniques was an inportant part of the course.

<p> Sniper class consisted of mostly E4's and E5's some had gotten a guaranteed spot as part of a reenlistment package. This class consisted of all army but in other classes they did have police units all though I believe they generally attend usmc school.

<p>Shooting with NVD is very prohibitive and difficult if the lighting isn't just right the pvs 4? if I remember correctly was only 2 gen night vision and it was only addaptable to the M21 (modified m14) and not the M-24 (modified rem 700) we also shot with illum but in school they used the hand fired type where in a real situation you would have called in morter fired illum. The equiptement was good and we did stock with 7b's and did practice spotting for each other. Much time was spend on range estimation, slope and wind doping. The m24 was most peoples preference all though we did have familiarization with the barrett. Army sniper teams would consist of one person with the m21 and one with the m24 but we spent most of out time with the m24.

I hope this gives a little more info, I don't want to hijact Mr. White's thread.
 
You're welcome Ojibweindian. It was my pleasure as you are an old time member of TFL.

BTW, "One Eye" was the name given to him by the whites of the regiment. The Indians of Co. K were recruited from the reservation in Oceana County, Little Traverse Bay, Bear River, Little Traverse, La Croix and the Mackinac region. Others came from Isabella Reservation & the Saginaw area. I'm not familar with the state (only been to Kalamazoo and I know where Fort Michilimakinac even though I've never been there). See Herek at pages 35-36.

Here's another story that involves a Berdan Sharpshooter: "I was sent to the Ninth Corps and had a long hard day sharpshooting... My orders were to annoy the enemy artillery which was keeping up a tearing fire on our troops... In front of me was a field of standing corn which was about two feet high making me a good screen but the shells came too close and I wanted to go over the summit and get down below the cornfield... I was sure that if I tried to cross the opening that the rebel pickets would get a bullet into me. While on the ridge I met a Michigan soldier and he was under the same orders I was. He was a full blooded Indian. I told him that I wished that I could get down to the cover of brush but the corn was not large or thick enough to cover us from the view of the rebels. The Indian said, 'Make self corn. Do as I do.' He then cut off the stocks of corn and began to stick them into his clothes and equipment. I did as he did and then we worked our way to the fence and cover of bushes without even drawing rebel fire.

The Indian and I had a very fine chance on the rebels. The Indian was good shot and enjoyed his duty, only when the shells came too close, then he would cringe and his eyes would look as wild as a panther's. In front of us was a battery and the earth at the muzzle was too high, so high that they did not try to fire the guns but were digging it down as we came into our new position. They dropped out of sight at our first shot and we kept them from using the guns all afternoon. After dark, the Indian and I returned to our respective commands, never to meet again. To me he was pleasant company although he had little to say." Taken from Wyman White's "The Civil War Diary of Wyman S. White," pages 249-250.

The First Michigan Sharpshooters was also in the area and it is possible the Indian mentioned by White was from Co. K.

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Thanks for the follow up ajacobs! We were posting concurrently with one another. Those details are exactly the "little stories" that we "outsiders" love to hear. If I think of anything more, I'll post.
 
rather than start a new thread...

Found William B. Folkestad's PanzerJager: Tank Hunter on a used book shelf and picked it up or $5. It was a one night read and is Bernhard Averbeck' wartime experience. Averbeck served with the 95th Infantry Div. until it got whiped out on the Russian Front. Here are some sniper related excerpts:

"Enemy snipers haunted the front line. Russian sharpshooters carried a fully automatic ten-shot rifle with a scope. They were good with their rifle and we learned from them what we could do and couldn't do. Usually one mistake was all that was allowed; appropriate behavior became second nature.

"I was relaxing on a brick wall, enjoying the rays of a sun that contained the promise of a warm summer. The "PHHHT" sound that threw up red brick dust sent me tumbling for cover. The sniper's bullet had passed between my legs and buried itself in the bricks. My white winter trousers had made a fine target. A little higher and the rifleman could have ended my thoughts of ever raising a family and higher still he could have ended my thoughts altogether."
from page.

I don't think the "fully automatic ten-shot rifle" is entirely accurate, but it doesn't detract from his experience in 1942. In the next passage (1943), we learn from Averbeck the fate of his friend:

"I returned from one of my visits outside to discover that Ludwig Kluge had taken my place in front of a blacked-out window. I didn't comment on it because Ludwig and I were close friends and had been together eve since we had first met while training at Herford.

"We were all feeling pretty good, and in the candlelight that flickered over the faces gathered inside, we began comparing our degustatory skills. All of a sudden a sniper's tracer bullet ripped through the window opening, striking the ceiling. Everybody jumped up looking for pliers or some other tool to pull the thing from where it had lodged in the wooden rafter before it caught fire. Ludwing remained seated the whole time so when I came back I asked him what was the matter?

"'I think that I am wounded,' he said. I opened his shirt and sure enough, I discovered the bullet had entered his back, angled down towards the ground, and richocheted up to the ceiling. He had unwittingly exchanged places and the risks that went with it.

"We took Ludwig to our field hospital and the company physician who was considered a specialist in belly shots which wre most often fatal. After Ludwig's operation we were informed that the bullet had pierced his intestines 25 times. When we visited him, he was in a special ward for gut wounds under the watchful eye of a medic. In this ard, an orderly was always prsent to make sure that after an operation no one had anything to drink for seven days to allow the intestines time to start healing. To help stave off the feeling of thirst, the orderly placed damp sponges in the patients' mouths.

"Three or four days later there was an emergency in another ward and the orderly left to lend a hand. After he departed Ludwing drank the contents of his warming bottle and two days later he was dead."
From p60.
 
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I didn't comment on this thread previously because I didn't really have anything of substance to contribute but I must say, it has been one of the most fascinating, entertaining and educational in the Rifle Country forum. :)
 
I don't think the "fully automatic ten-shot rifle" is entirely accurate

Scoped SVT, don't know enough about them to comment further, but "fully Automatic" in relation to the SVT could be a mild mis-translation of some form of Selbsleder(sp?) or Sturmgewehr (manuscript was german Translated to english right?). and the SVT WAS equipped with a 10-round magazine

i have also been told that the SVT based sniper weapons while of lesser accuracy compared to the Moisin-Nagant, were fo great use in city fighting. and that the success of the SVT in this role lead to the birth of the SVD. and that SVD started out life the same way, I.E. as a self loading rifle chambered in a full power round. and that the develpment into Snyperskya-VD came fairly late in the game.
 
While with C Co (Crazy Horse) 4/10 Inf out of Ft Davis, Panama in 1981/2 I was able to attend a local Sniper School on the Pacific side at the Empire Range complex.

The school was run by SF guys who were with the group that was stationed at Ft. Gulick on the Atlantic side, same as Davis.

AFAIK many places both CONUS and OCONUS ran local sniper schools. Ft. Lewis had a sniper school in the early to late 80's, that was run by SF guys from the group stationed there as well.

The guns we used were M21s with 3-9 ART scopes. These guns belonged to my company and I believe we had 3 or so assigned. After sighting in from a prone sandbag supported position all shooting was done from either prone (not supported), sitting or kneeling positions. I always disagreed with the no use of a rest rule and to this day am not sure why they did it.

We did a night shoot with a AN PVS 2, an ancient dinosaur compared to todays night sights. In that night shoot we shot from a prone supported position. This was the only time we used a rest after the initial zero.

Most targets were steel type silhouttes at ranges from 100-1000 yards with a hit or miss being counted by the "clang" or lack thereof of the bullet hitting the steel.

To graduate you had to hit a certain percentage of the metal silhouttes, sorry I don't remember the percentage but believe it was fairly high, somewhere around 90%.

Prerequisits for attending were a rank of Specialist or higher (no officers). 1 Year retainability, no bars or flags (if you were in the military you'll know what this means), and qualified Expert with the M16, there was also a minum PT test score but I don't remember that either. It was probably a minimum of 225 out of the max of 300.

Rob
 
Hi Art,

This was the one and only time I actually used this scope. Other than for training exercises (blank fire). While I attended the school I was never assigned to a HQ's / Scout platoon as a sniper.

As this was a looong time ago, many of my memories are fuzzy. From what I remember the way the ART scopes worked was by bracketing the top of someones head and their belt line between 2 horizontal stadia lines you ended up with the range to the target and aimed dead on.

I.E. if you adjusted your magnification ring so that the top of the head and the belt were between the 2 lines, and the magnification ring showed a 5x the range to the target was 500 meters.

Anyway, in theory this seemed like a great idea and should have worked better than what I remember it doing. I and many of my classmates had lots of problems. I think that most were from the fact that we could not use a rest to shoot. (While the more I think about that now the more upset I get)

Even shooting expert with the M16 hitting a human sized silhouette at anywhere from 100-900 yards from an unsupported position is extremly difficult to do. Not so hard at the closer ranges but when you get out to 400+ meters and beyond I'm still amazed today to see how anyone did it with consistency.

FWIW - Today for my fun precision rifle I shoot a Remington 700 Police in .308 Win, with a Leupold 3-9x Vari X III scope. And am seriously planning on getting another scope with more magnification. Probably something around 4-16X



Rob
 
4v50 Gary,

To be quite honest I'm not sure off hand what the difference is between the ART I and II. I don't remember which one we used.

Rob
 
It was my good fortune to attend the 4th Division Sniper School at Camp Radcliffe (An Khe), Viet Nam. I went there in 1970. I was NOT a part of the 4th Division. I was a paratrooper assigned to the 173D Airborne (Separate) Brigade out of L.Z. Uplift. The 173D fell under "operational control" of the 4th Division but was a separate unit. I was originally a member of the 1/503rd Recon Platoon which was a part of Echo Company. I was originally a forward observer assigned to one of the Hawk (Recon) Teams. By pure good luck I managed to con my way into the school via the 1st Battalion CSM. I loved it! We ended up with about a total of 10 to 12 snipers within our battalion. I have no doubts at all that EVERY one of our snipers ended up with multiple confirmed kills. The leading sniper in my battalion, an older man from Arkansas, had about 50 kills or so when I left Nam to go home. For more information about the snipers in the 173D Airborne read the book titled "Soldier" by James Gibbore. The ISBN # for the book is: 0-7394-2694-X. Gibbore was two classes in front of me and his Sniper School Certificate, like mine, was signed by the same Captain Arthur D. Helton, Jr. See page 212 of his book. Gibbore's recon team was also based at L.Z. Uplift just down the road from where my team was housed. He and I, from the sounds of his book, worked in a lot of the same areas. From the way he describes things, his teams would work an area and my teams would work a different area. Later on, they switched his teams' area of operations with the area of operations that my teams had been working and vice versa. If you were a sniper in ANY unit in Nam, you could draw a working assignment from the Sniper School, Special Observations (Operations) Group (aka: SOG), your Corps command people, your division headquarters, your brigade, your battalion, your company and even your own platoon leader(s). And then you could also luck into the periodic target of opportunity too. Snipers in Viet Nam were ALWAYS busy doing something. Believe it or not, a guy REALLY could get tired of shooting at people, even if they were lowlife communists. I think that Gibbore also covers that issue in his book and it is valid as he describes it. What was sometimes funny was HOW the snipers were deployed. I was moved from the Recon Platoon to a line platoon in the Crescent Valley below the Hawk's Nest. This platoon had periodically been drawing sniper fire on an irregular basis. About the second week at the new location, we started getting rifle fire from our northeast. I got into position, found where the enemy sniper was shooting from, took aim and returned fire on him. Intelligence later confirmed that not only had I gotten the other (enemy) sniper but I had also splattered parts of his head over his two assistants/trainees. According to the intel guys, it all happened so fast that the two assistants/trainees heard him shoot and then got covered with parts of him. At first the two assistants thought that their buddy's rifle had blown up and killed him. The enemy team had no idea that an American sniper had been moved into the area until their sniper ended up dead. No, my bullet did NOT go down the enemy's rifle scope. It just happened to be a pretty lucky shot, done at dusk, with a decent rifle and scope in my possession. Besides, if those guys had been any closer, I might not have needed to open my eyes to hit the enemy sniper like I did. They were way under 200 yards, next to the base of a palm tree with a dark area slightly behind them to silhouette the shooter when he shot. It was almost like a "gimme" type of shot. Okay, so I'm kidding about not opening my eyes to shoot at closer ranges. But, enjoy the book by Gibbore and learn a little bit more about what the guys in the 173D while they were in Viet Nam. Airborne all the way!!!
 
Great stuff! Keep it coming!

I'd have to find them but I have two books that deal with Marine snipers although I think they are known as "Precision Riflemen" rather than snipers....
 
Spoke with a (late) member of the AMU who was present when the ART I was adopted. Leatherwood developed the scope which was based on a Redfield sporter. It was never designed to be fired as much as a sniper would. Consequently, they broke. There was no warranty, manual on servicing on them. Fellow was in 'Nam had to take it apart and get it to work. By contrast the ART II was a tougher scope.
 
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