50 T/C Hawken Problem

[270WSMANIC]

Bought this rifle used winter 07. During the spring and summer I had shot the rifle on several different occasions. Found real Quick that it would not shoot the patched round ball, after trying several different combos found that the patch would blow to small bits even with 50gr 777. Tried 90gr 777 and 50 Maxie ball shot great but very painfull to shoot unless padded between brass butt plate and sholder. Next tried 320gr Lee Real Bullets same great all touching groups @ 25yds. and less painfull . I cast a bunch of the 320 gr and didn't shoot any more till sight in during doe season. At first started a cloverleaf group @ 25yds, then one missed the box??? Just a flawed bullet thunk I, then another missed ON THE OTHER SIDE OF BOX??? this is about a 20 in. X 24in. box and sand bag rest!!!! After quite a bit more shooting found that now and then one would go in or very near the group, most though missed that big box high, low, left and right. Some of my buddys watching the procedings allowed that they would have allready wrapped the gun around a tree. I'm too stubborn to give up that easy though and I tried every 50 cal bullet anyone had on hand, Maxie Hunter, PA conical, Power Belts; all with simmalar results. I get to thinking, ( I know thats dangerous) what could have changed from my summer shooting results, and the results now maby cold barrel instead of a warm one? I now became a deer driver for the m/l season Later on I bought a bore light and sliding it down the barrel inch or so at a time had a good look at the rifeling, it looked pretty good to me eccept it seemed to be worn right at the crown. I know this can affect accuracy if bad enough??? Maybe if bullet is started every so slightly cockeyed the muzzel blast would cause an extreme flier??? Just me thinking out loud. Cain M/L in P-burg tells me they can cut and recrown the barrel for about $50.00. Next time I'm down there will let them look the barrel over and see what they think. I remember being told by somebody that the crown can be slowly worn away by the ramrod. Any body have any thoughts. In other words HELP.

 

[arcticap]

I wouldn't blame your crown yet but rather the 777 powder.
That stuff can be very erratic especially when it's compressed, and it only seems to perform best in inline rifles.
Using those larger conical bullets is developing more pressure and inconsistent performance because it's a faster & higher velocity powder.
Plus, you are supposed to reduce the amount of 777 powder by 15% volume when compared to any other BP substitute.
You're suppose to start at a minimum load (50 grain) and work your way up in 5 grain increments until you find the most accurate sweet spot. Then if you start to lose accuracy back off on the powder.
What size balls & patch thickness were you using? Maybe you need thicker patches depending on the size of the ball. Were they lubed with Bore Butter? Placing a wool wad (bore buttons) under the ball (or conical) acts like a gas check and can improve accuracy. I would try another powder and use less of it, especially with patched round balls.
Does your bore still feel nice and smooth when you clean it without any uneveness?

 

[ArmedBear]

Pyrodex and a barrel protector are good things. I have a range rod that has a built-in protector; that's all I've ever used to load and clean the thing.

That said, T/C now has a larger unrifled bore right at the muzzle to make loading easier (is that called "counterboring"?). T/C calls it "QLA", or "quick load accurizer". If I were to have the barrel messed with, I would have that feature added to the existing barrel, not have the barrel cut down. That will solve the problem of worn rifling while adding to the utility of the rifle and leaving the barrel length and sight radius alone.

 

[Pancho]

When you say the patch is shredded is it also burnt along the sides? If that is the case your patch may be too thin. If the patch is cut the patch is too thick.
You mentioned that the rifling looked worn at the muzzle. Modern steel makes the idea of wearing out the rifling a remote possibility. Could you have what TC called QLA? QLA was TC's attempt at lessening the possibility of canting maxi balls. I've never seen a TC with QLA so I don't know if they eliminated the rifling at the muzzle or just honed the muzzle out and lessened the depth of the rifling.
Arcticap is right you should settle on a powder and projectile and work up a load from there. If, you reach 100 gr. of powder and the load still won't group to your satisfaction start over with a different round and try it again. When you run out of round possibilities start all over again with a different powder. As you can see working up a load for any given gun can be tedious. The secret is to change only one thing at a time to cut down on the variables it can only confuse. Oh yeah, don't forget consistency.

 

[whosyrdaddy]

Swabbing between shots

I didn't see any mention of swabbing between shots. 777 is notorious for building a crud ring at the point in the bore where bullet and powder meet.
This ring grows with each consecutive shot if left unchecked. this ring can prevent the bullet from being seated on the powder thus creating a short start situation seriously degrading accuracy. I have found that on occasion I may have to break the crud ring by slamming the rod through it even after the first shot.

 

[Wildfire]

All are right

Hey There:
All the replies so far are right. The one thing you should also try and do is to return the gun to the same condition as when it does group. If that means cleaning between shots then that may be what is needed. I would also go back to BP or Pyrodex. 777 is a little on the hot side and may not be what your gun wants. Play around with it and it should come in. That crown is more then likely not a big deal on your gun. High power rifles yes.

 

[Zeke/PA]

My T/C Hawkin is a built from kit rifle that I've had for about 25 years.
I shoot a homecast .490 round ball with a precut .010" patch over 45grains of Goex FFG for general range use.
For hunting, I use a home cast 370 Grain Maxi-Ball over 90 grains of the same Goex.
I generally swab every second shot as I've gotten better accuracy by doing so.
I've taken twelve deer with this very acccurate rifle.
If shooting from rest, place the forearm, NOT the barrel on the sandbags.
When you are finished loading, return the ramrod to the ramrod pipes and then shoot.
Seems like the accuracy is affected by the "ramrod in the pipes".
Are you using a short starter?
Zeke

 

[270WSMANIC]

Thanks for all the great sugestions, some already tried some not. Tried swabing between loads, reduceing charge, tried black powder, always make sure forearm not barrel touching sand bag, moderately tight patch/ball combo, definatly noticed the crud ring, no counterboring but that might be a fix, barrel seems smooth and even far as I can tell when swabbing, I try to keep the rest consistent as possible. Will try again first chance I get may get some pyrodex. Again thanks.

 

[280shooter]

rate of twist

Is your rate of twist made for rould ball or conicals,?that does make a dif.YOU need to go at this slow,dont rush,crap happens when you rush,Go back to black powder,most of the other stuff are really for in lines,Hey that curved butt plates nice isnt it,,LOL,I have that same set up on my gun, i shot mine one day in the summer while wearing a tee shirt,i thought i broke my collor bone ,I did find the best, go on any gun,magnums 3 in shot gun slug guns,You name it,it tames it,recoil pad,Its the gel filled seat cover off my wifes bike,That cover really work for any range work,if you have one of them sitting around gathering duts,take it to the range,ANd your the T/C bore butter,clean the bore with hot water,,and aftrer its cleaned and dry,soak the bore with the butter,run cleaning rags to get the extras out,but always keep a film on the bore,But go back to b/p and check to see what your ROT is

 

[Omnivore]

I've had this exact same experience several times, with modern firearms, including once with a scoped .308. In every case it was due to a loose sight. Twice with a .30 carbine (once was a loose rear sight and once was a loose front sight) twice with a Winchester '94 (again, once with a fallen-out rear sight elevation wedge and once with a loose front sight) once with a Ruger Mini-14, once with a Ruger Mini-30. The scoped .308 had a loose occular lens bell. In short-- check your sights carefully.

Once you find an accruate load, stick with it unless you intend to readjust your sights. Different loads can end up shooting a very different trajectory.

Are you an experienced shooter? I've seen people flinch so bad that, from a standing position, they hit the ground halfway between them and a 7 yard target. That's no joke. We all do it-- it's just a matter of how often and how bad, and the more shots you've fired that day the worse it gets. I teach new shooters, and I frequently have then unload and do some dry firing to show them how much they're flinching. Invariably after dry firing until the flinch is gone, the next live shot is dead-on. Percussion nipples will usually stand dry firing on a spent cap once in a great while, with no ill effects. Just don't ever do it on a bare nipple. Different hammer-mainspring combos will have different results, so use caution. IPSC shooters I know use a .22 pistol to "work out the flinch" at the range, then go back to the .40 or whatever it is they use in competition. You would not believe how much difference that (and dry firing at the range) can make until you try it.

A patched ball should be hard to start. You have to use 100% cotton patches and the ball must be forced into the rifling at the muzzle using a ball starter-- some people roll the wooden handle of the starter into the patched balll to get it started, but I use a flat portion on the handle and force it straight down with some real pressure to engage it with the rifling, then ram it in a few inches with the short rod on the starter, then drive it home with the ramrod. No cleaning between shots should be necessary under normal circumstances if you're using the proper lube regimine. If there's a problem with fouling, you should try different lube. Bore Butter worked into the patch works best for a lot of people. Never use petroleum-based solvents or lube.

You can't shoot patched ball without a ball starter, because a properly fit ball is way too hard to start with only the ramrod.

I'm burning 110 grains of RS behind a patched ball in a very similar rifle and getting 4" to 6", three-shot groups at 100 yards using hunting sights (front bead, rear notch-- not the best for accuracy) from the bench. The patches come out fairly shredded around the edge, but usually the patch is in one picece otherwise. NO burn-through-- the patched ball (a lubed patch is a must) forms an absolute airtight seal, such that if there is a spent cap with the hammer sittin on it, there will be a very audible "Pssspht!" noise when I cock the hammer after loading. A loose-fit ball will not engage the rifling, plus the hot blow-by could be tearing up the patch, or if it's not getting adequate purchase on the rifling, the rifling itself could be tearing it up on the way down the bore as the ball "strips" on the rifling. That would also explain poor stabilization in flight.

 

[Misfire99]

When I read your problems I wonder if they are from a casting problem. I wonder if there are voids in your bullets. Do you use a thermometer when you cast? What alloy do you use? Is it pure lead, wheel weights or what. My self when bullets are going all over the place I suspect the bullets. If you had a worn spot in the barrel the bullets would tend to go in one direction only. But if they are going to the left the right then up then down it's something else. Something that is different everytime. And just about the only thing that is different is the bullet.You might even want to weigh a bunch of your bullets and see if they weight about the same. See what kind of spread you have per bullet type. Then you can even cut open some to see if there are any voids in them. Voids can be caused by your melt being at to low a temp. And I would recommend a pure lead alloy of a 20-1 lead to tin alloy. The tin just makes the melt flow better in the mold.

You can cut a lot of time out of your testing by shooting some store bought bullets and see how they shoot. Precision Rifle makes some very nice bullets. You can find them on the web at:
http://www.muzzleloadingbullets.com/index.html

Shoot some of these and see if the problems go away. But before you do make sure that the bore is clean of any crud ring from the triple seven.

Precision Rifle also makes a very cool item that I have not had the chance to try out yet. It's a cupped base that acts like a gas seal. They say you can get up to 200 fps more velocity using them. I have some but haven't gotten to the range to try them yet.

 

[mossy141701]

I was going to suggest the same thing as Omnivore, I saw a friend sight in his CVA hawkins one time and was getting about two inch groups a 100 yards, the next day he couldn't even hit the target , shooting all around it. We checked and the rear sight was about to fall off, tightened it up with a little blue loctight and resighted with no more problems.