.56-56 or .56-50 in Spencer Repeating Carbine?

[Atla]

Let's say you needed to kill something rather large and thick skinned.

You've a Spencer Repeating Carbine, which round would be more ideal to the task?

This is research for a novel btw. The main characters Winchester Model 73 is destroyed, his back up is this rifle.

From what my research shows in 1864 the Spencer Repeating Carbine was changed over to the .56-50. While the .56-50 cartridge would work in previous .56-56 rifles, the .56-56 would not chamber in the newer .56-50.

Correct?

Thank you all in advance.

 

[Atla]

Maybe a better question is, would anyone even care that this gun is used?

Being a gun guy myself I'd like to keep the 'oh neat' factor for the reading, since it's primarily aimed at shooters.

The setting is 1885, and I need a back up rifle that would have been used for hunting buffalo.

 

[sean m]

it looks like the crimp varied

 

[Atla]

I think for the sake of 'research' I need to find and shoot one of these.

 

[Jim Watson]

When the Army went to .50 caliber for new purchases and refurbishment of existing guns in 1865, they standardized the .56-50.
As I understand it, Spencer considered the cartridge to be excessively crimped and offered the .56-.52. You could still get .56-.52 (and .56-.46) from Sears & Roebuck in 1901. A Spencer carbine was $3.65 in that catalog where Winchesters started at $11.55,
I don't know how long .56-.56 ammo stayed in production and I don't know how many serviceable .56-.56 rifles might have escaped the rebuild with .50 liner.

Me? I would not get too precious with caliber designations, it pads the word count but does not advance the plot.

Time frame. I don't think there were many buffalo left in 1885 and I would not be hunting the remainder with a '73 or a Spencer.

 

[Atla]

It's not a buffalo they are shooting at in the novel. But I needed a rifle that the protagonist may have used to hunt buffalo around 1870-1875 time frame. Right now I have a Spencer Carbine being passed on to him from his father who fought in the Civil War. If they were refurbishing them in 1865, the .56-50 would make sense.

It's an alternate timeline/fiction/scifi. That gives me a LOT of flexibility, but at the same time I'm trying to keep it to a minimum.

And I'd prefer not to end up as one of the 'jackass authors that get all the gun stuff wrong' on here.



As a side note, I actually plan on having a Buffalo Ranch in the future. Unless I let my wife talk me into keeping Scottish Highland Cattle...

 

[Crawdad1]

I got nothing in my library on this.

 

[Atla]

Don't worry Crawdad1, I'm sure I'll have more questions as I go on.

It was an interesting time, but it would get old fast if everyone was carrying around a Winchester 73 or 76. Even if they did 'Win the West'.

I did give Annie Oakley a Winchester Model 1876 One of a Thousand in .44-40, though. Because a classy lady deserves a classy rifle.

But don't worry, I'm keeping the wordy-ness(?) down. I've no intention of boring anyone over gun descriptions. But when two gun people get together, ie Annie Oakley and Buffalo Bill Cody, they are going to talk a little about guns.

 

[Crawdad1]

Doing a search on the internet I'm running into to much conflicting information about the original Spencer round and subsequent models. I found this however,

The fall of 1864 and the early months of 1865 saw three major changes to the Spencer carbines being delivered on existing Army contracts, resulting in a nomenclature change to the Model 1865. In November 1864, the Ordnance Dept. directed that the carbines be chambered for the new standard rimfire round, .56-50, replacing the .56-56. The new .56-50 ammunition could chamber in the older M1860 carbines, but the earlier .56-56 would not chamber in the new carbines. The .56-50-chambered guns were stamped on the receiver “Model 1865,” and the barrel length was shortened to 20 inches.


The M-1865 is the Spencer of the Indian Wars era. The only major changes are a reduction in caliber to .50" and 20 inch barrels for the carbines, down from the M-1863's 22 inches. Rifles remained at 30 inches. This, and all later military Spencers, are chambered for the 56-50 cartridge. The round was actually developed by the US Ordinance Department during the Civil War. Its introduction in March of 1865 was just barely too late for service in that conflict.

The limiting factor in the Spencer design is overall cartridge length. Cases longer than about 1.7 inches will not feed through the action. By using a lighter bullet and slightly larger powder charge, the 56-50 improved on the ballistic performance of the 56-56 about as much as was possible.
The 50 caliber Spencer went on to develop an enviable reputation on the frontier. This in spite of the fact that the round was under powered for the wide open west, even when it was first introduced. Spencers were the standard issue weapon of mounted troops for a decade after 1865, with few exceptions. Their firepower saved the day in many actions. When it came to a close fight, such as Beecher's Island in eastern Colorado, the repeaters were hard to beat. In a cost cutting move, they were finally superseded by the single shot Model 1873 Springfield carbine. The changeover started late in 1874, five years after the Spencer company went out of business. Some units were equipped with Spencers well into 1876. They continued to be issued to teamsters and settlers well after their departure from front line service. Westerners prized them as a handy saddle gun. Many were in use as late as the turn of the century. Their cartridges were loaded commercially at least through 1919.


The best advantage of a Spencer is the outstanding accuracy of these arms. The author's M-1868 carbine has produced 1 1/4 " groups at 100 yards. One particular M-1865 rifle shot a 2 1/4 " group the first time it was fired this century, and using the magazine, which tends to dent the bullet noses.

There is a lot of confusion with regard to Spencer cartridges. This is due in no small part to their peculiar designations. Much has been printed about Spencer calibers and cartridges, a large portion of it is not correct. At the time of their introduction, it hadn't occurred to anyone to name cartridges by the caliber of the barrel for which they were intended. Therefore the first metallic ammunition was designated simply by its body diameter.

Thus the cartridge that fits the Model 1863 rifle and carbine was called the "Number 56 Cartridge", since the weapon for which it is intended had a chamber of about .56". The actual barrel caliber is .52". When a 50 caliber round was first investigated, it became obvious that the chamber diameter designation was not going to work. The new round would also be .56" in body diameter. At that point, another designation was introduced. This method uses the diameter at the head and mouth of the cartridge. Thus the No. 56 became the 56-56 and the new 50 cal. round became the 56-52.

Some additional information about some of these cartridges.

http://www.civilwarguns.com/spencer3.html

But these guys shoot the Spencer on a regular basis,

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/board,35.0.html

 

[Crawdad1]

Don't forget about the muzzleloaders,

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/616/1/VINCENT-OHIO-PERC-PARTS-LIST


Good luck with your book!!!!

 

[Jim Watson]

I did give Annie Oakley a Winchester Model 1876 One of a Thousand in .44-40, though. Because a classy lady deserves a classy rifle.

BRAAK! Error, error.
The Winchester 1876 was the large frame toggle breech gun, calibers .45-75 etc. A .44-40 of the era was an 1873.

Spencer folded in 1869. There were a lot of the rifles and carbines built, and ammunition continued in production for many years, but there were no spare parts or replacement rifles available. It was not so much a cost cutting measure as a bunch of worn out guns that led to replacement by Trapdoor single shots.

Andecdote: When I was a student in the 1960s, my landlady's brother had a Spencer for which he had paid the farmer whose land he hunted, $10 in 1957. Not worth much to the farmer, he could no longer buy ammo.

 

[Atla]

Ah Jim Watson, I missed that!

Thank you very much. Originally I had it as a Model 1873, and as I was finishing up that section I saw they had done another 'One of a Thousand' set for the 1876 and threw that date on it since it was newer. Completely overlooking the fact that they were different.

This is why everyone writes books with people using AR-15s.

Crawdad1, good read on the Spencers! Thank you very much for that sir!

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

What if:
Your protagonist is given his father's CW Spencer and takes it west.
In St. Louis, he meets up with some Buffalo Hunters who make fun of it as a Buffalo gun.
He takes it to Gemmer at the old Hawken works and has it rebarreled into one of these:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,34261.0.html
https://www.rockislandauction.com/d...fle-conversion-of-a-spencer-civil-war-carbine
He shoots lots of Buffalo with it but in the '70's he adds a Winchester Lever gun to his arsenal.

 

[Atla]

Ohh!

That is a neat twist. I'll have to dig into that!

Thanks!

 

[Crawdad1]

Not to get off track but you did mention Buffalo Bill,

"Among many Buffalo Bill’s revolvers, this one is perhaps the most important gun which he used in his days as a plainsman guiding America’s frontier army during the Indian wars. The gun, a US civil war-era Remington New Model Army .44 percussion revolver, used by William Cody, aka Buffalo Bill, is to be sold through Heritage Auctions in its Legends of the Wild West sale in Dallas on June 10 and could fetch $200,000."

"This maybe most important revolver will be accompanied at auction by Cody’s personal business card in his position as judge advocate general of Wyoming, which bears the message: “To Charlie & Carrie. This old Remington revolver. I carried and used for many years in Indian Wars and Buffalo killing. And it never failed me. WF Cody Dec 13th 1906.” Cody wrote this note to his friends Charles and Carrie Trego, when he gave them the gun for Christmas in 1906."

http://www.extravaganzi.com/buffalo...lver-could-fetch-200000-at-auction-in-dallas/

 

[Atla]

That's pretty awesome. I got to tour the Buffalo Bill Cody Museum in Cody, Wy about 10 years ago and really enjoyed it.

At the time I was planning on moving their to be a Peace Officer.

I'd just like to hold it in my hands and look down the sights.