6.5 Grendel/AR Experts Help Needed

[870fan]

I am contemplating building my 1st AR upper in 6.5 Grendel. I plan on using it for mule deer hunting to maybe 250 yards and paper punching out to maybe 400 yards. My end goal is to have something that is very light and handy but is still accurate.

Does anybody out there use the 6.5 Grendel for a similar purpose. What barrel length are you running?

Edit:

I reload and was thinking of using the parts to build out my upper.
- 16" or 18" fluted barrel
- Lightweight, freefloat handguard. I don't need a lot of rail space. All I'll be attaching is a QD sling swivel mount and a harris bipod
-

 

[aubie515]

Not to try to sway your choice, but given your needs/wants, I'd get the 6.8SPC. It will do everything the 6.5G will do at those distances at a more affordable price.

The 6.5G beats the 6.8SPC when you add a 20"+ barrel to the 6.5G...that is when the 6.5G shines with a longer barrel for longer range.

If you want a 16" hunting AR15 platform...the 6.8SPC is the ticket. There always seems to be component/ammo availability issues with the 6.5G...I like the 6.5G, but it doesn't do anything special compared to the 6.8SPC in the 400 yard range.

 

[68wj]

That was fast. Less than 10 minutes after mentioning the G, someone says get the SPC. :banghead:

OP - Wish I could help you but I don't have the G either. Do you have a particular setup that you are going for? Carbine or rifle size, adj stock or fixed, etc? As for ammo, do you hand load?

 

[870fan]

Aubie515,

I have looked a lot at the 6.8 SPC II and it would certainly meet my needs.I have pretty much settled on the 6.5 because I have a fascination with 6.5 rounds. I am leaning towards an 18" barrel with the expectation that I would get around 2450 fps to 2500 fps with a 123 gr bullet.

 

[1stmarine]

Good think you ask and do not jump right away into the next great AR-15 caliber everyone is trying to sell. Everything starts and ends with the bullet.
Hopefully a good one.

My suggestions is think about the purpose and look at the bullet first, what selection you have, what you can do with them and then decide on what system and case can deliver that bullet.

-.243 you have some of the best assortment of bullets like in the .224 bore. The best case for this will be the 6mm BR dasher but it is not so popular and pricey. The 6MM BRX and 6MMAR show great results too. There some pretty good bullets for white tail but I question terminal effectiveness on mule at those ranges.
- 6.5 lots of good choices unfortunately not so many high BC bullets on the hunting side.
- 6.8 - small assortment some decent in high grain but cannot be shot out of an AR-15 so the AR-15 is dedicated for short-mid range. Look at the ballistics of the 6.8 low grain and they are not that great after past the 200-250 yards it drops straight to the ground.
-30 caliber. These use neck up versions of the WSSM cartriges. They will do the mule and Bear but they are somehow too specialized for my taste. Not the best for long range hunting since they run into the same problem as the 6.8. the casing cannot hold any of the high BC bullets w/o running into the ogive so in this case I would stay with the Grendel that although slow at first it can fly longer and better, specially for long range target.

Go to Hornday, Nosler, Barnes, Verger, Sierra, etc.. websites and look at the bullets. Right down the Ballisctic coefficient and sectional density. Then find out the bullets you like and then cases that can push what you need still in the AR-15 platform.

Just run some ballistics charts and verify what I just told you. Nothing needs to be invented. It has already been invented so do the home work. If you want some ballistic charts from the above I can give them to you. I have the Grendel, the 6.8 SPC and others and I can give you more info if you want.

In any case consider Barnes Tripple Shock (now tipped) and nosler partition or e-tip in any caliberes. These are extremely lethal.
For target the hornady match have a great price.

Again, the largets assortment and some of the best bullets you will find are in .224, .246/6mm and .30 calibers. 6.5 have some decent ones too but restricted selection.


Cheers,
E.

...I forgot for the Grendel you need to go with the long barrel of 22 or 24 inches. It is a slow round so you need to squeeze every fps you can using powders.

 

[1stmarine]

I ran this 130gr 6.5 hunting bullet for you....

http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/Accubond.aspx

Temp 65. Sea level.

Range Velocity Energy Drop
0 2600 1951 0
100 2418 1688 2.95
200 2248 1459 11.87
300 2085 1255 27.71
400 1929 1074 51.59
500 1781 916 84.85
600 1641 777 129.1
700 1512 660 186.27
800 1394 561 258.64
900 1289 480 348.84
1000 1199 415 459.82

Definitely a hot load but a doable one.
If you go for the Grendel go for the long barrel, I suggest Lothar walther. Alexander uses them in their best rifles.

 

[madcratebuilder]

The 6.5 Grendel is becoming popular these days. Several barrel makers now, Horndy and Wolf make a selection of ammo for it that's affordable. I'm just about finished with a 24" Overwatch build that well be for longer range paper punching.

A 18" with a light tube HG would be a fairly light rifle and very suitable for deer.

 

[68wj]

- 6.8 - small assortment some decent in high grain but cannot be shot out of an AR-15 so the AR-15 is dedicated for short-mid range. Look at the ballistics of the 6.8 low grain and they are not that great after past the 200-250 yards it drops straight to the ground.
.

You misquoted the internet, it is "drops harmlessly to the ground after 200-250 yds." That is illustrated by the below information at 300 yards.

6.8 SPC SSA factory ammo 16" barrel
100 Nosler-2700fps--drop9.0/809ft lbs
110 Nosler-2630fps--drop9.0/939ft lbs
110TSX-2630fps---drop 9.5/856ft lbs

And yes, bullet selection is quite miserable as seen here (the Hornady 120 gr SST and Federal 120 gr Fusion are not shown as they will be released later this year)


I apologize for the drift. 870fan, I think the Grendal is a fine round. It wasn't my choice, and I don't regret it, but I doubt you will regret yours if you do get one too. However, as I asked above, it would be best if you handloaded to get the most out of the platform (both in performance and economy).

 

[Tirod]

Hey, guys, lay off. The OP is NOT asking about the merits of one over the other. He HAS posted he looked. It's a choice with some thought and balance in what he wants.

As for actual ballistic application, either round sighted in for the distance will do, and can hit the same candy wrapper. The real issue is does the 6.5G offer him any extra ftlbs at the longer range he can use. The answer is if he's willing to use the longer barrel to get more initial speed - the shorter one won't deliver as much. It doesn't mean it won't at all.

Other than the bolt, barrel, and magazine, everything else about a 16-18" AR for hunting is the same as for the other caliber. The specific parts listed look like good choices. Barrels are available from AA, Les Baer, and others, along with complete uppers. Check in with the apparent 6.8SPC makers too as many offer 6.5G barrels. It's business, they sell what they can.

Shoot equal rounds - bullet weight and powder - down equal length barrels, and there isn't that much difference. The actual performance will be apparent, 6.8 is generally faster with more power at short range, the 6.5G is generally slower but carries more power at longer range. That has to do with a bigger powder load and shorter bullet vs. less powder but more aerodynamic, that doesn't lose velocity at longer ranges.

The general consensus I've gathered over the last year is that the G will do slightly better from about 250 to 400 and beyond. Either will do about 40% better than 5.56, the whole point of the effort. Whether the slight difference is worth the commitment is a different issue, both calibers have been misunderstood and sold off. Apparently some think they should be able to treat them like 5.56 and demand .25c a round ammo at every possible shopping location. To say their expectations are unrealistic understates the problem. Those flash in the pan fanboys aren't the backbone of the user groups by a long shot.

WHO HAS actually used a 16-18" Grendel and what are YOUR impressions?

 

[longdayjake]

I own an 18" 6.8 SPCII and a 20" 6.5 Grendel. I bought the Grendel first for exactly the same purposes as what he mentioned he would be buying his for. Though I like the 6.8 for its intended purpose, I find the 6.5 to be my preferred caliber for sporting purposes.

I am really getting sick of people telling others that the Grendel needs a long barrel to be any good. The only thing that a grendel needs a longer barrel for is to reach past 1000 yards. A 16" barrel will still get you super sonic out to 1000 just fine with the right bullet. One thing that the Grendel does not have is super light low bc 6.5 bullets that can be driven at 3200fps. If that is what the OP was looking for I am sure he would have went with the 6.8. It sounds to me like what he is going for is something that shoots a high bc bullet that can also be used for hunting. That was why I bought my 6.5 grendel. Though I shoot a 20" grendel I would not feel undergunned with a 16" because I know the potential of those higher bc bullets. That said, the 6.8 is no slouch at 400 yards.

If you are thinking about buying the grendel strictly for hunting at those short ranges I would suggest using a 100 grain barnes ttsx. I shot a cow elk with one this fall. Here are some pictures of the results. With 28 grains of aa2230 I was getting 2795-2800 fps. I could probably add another grain of powder to that and get some more velocity but I really don't care. It worked just fine.







I don't mind that people like to mention how awesome their 6.8 is and that you should get one. However, my guess is most of those guys don't have a chrono and don't realize that they aren't getting the velocities that they read on the internet. My guess is most guys that buy the 6.8 won't ever reach those awesome velocities until they handload beyond the max (ruin their brass) or get really lucky on their bullet to barrel combination. One thing that I constantly hear 6.8 folk talk about is the availability of factory ammo. What they don't realize is that even the SSA tactical loads are not loaded to the crazy pressures to reach the velocities that people see on the internet. I feel that in order to get the most out of any cartridge is to reload for it. So, that is why I haven't bought a factory round for any of my guns for about 3 years now. If you reload i feel that you will get a lot more satisfaction out of the grendel then the 6.8. I sure do.

That said, my 6.5 is HEAVY and I don't use it for hiking around type hunting. That elk walked right up close to me while I was lying in a farmer's field. If I had to haul that elk plus my gun back a ways I would have probably used it to end my suffering. If I was buying a purely hunting use rifle I would go with this one. However, it is a lot of money for just 5.25 lbs of love.

http://alexanderarms.com/item/11/135/65Grendel16UltralightRifle.htm

Here is a good bit of reading on short barrel grendels. Trust what gunwritr says. He has shot more crap than you can believe.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=121&t=520237

 

[GunTech]

I doubt you'd notice the difference between 6.5 and 6.8 at the ranges quoted. I've built guns in both calibers. 6.5g will let you load heavier bullets, and good brass (Lapua) is costly enough that you'll be picking up every piece.

As far as case capacity, Grendel has more capacity than 6.8, not less. While it is a shorter case, it's a bigger case head. However the longer 6.5 bullets means slightly less usable case capacity (about 1 grain of water less).

Grendel is only slower when you use heavier bullets. Shoot a bullets of the same weight and you'll get velocities that are very similar (typically within 50 fps) of 6.8. But the 6.5 bullets will tend to have better BC.

The reality is that Grendel will perform as well as 6.8 at all ranges when loaded equivalently, but is less popular and cases are more expensive and harder to find, as is loaded ammunition. But Grendel has the ability to use heavier high BC bullets with better long range performance.

With lighter bullets (in the 85-120gn range) 6.8 and Grendel have near identical velocities, with Grendel having a slight advantage on the low end and 6.8 with a slight advantage at the higher end of this range.

 

[68wj]

@ Londayjake - Every time I see that elk photo I think you are having too much fun with that ax

AR variant caliber myths:
The 6.5 G needs a broomstick lenth barrel to shoot.
The 6.8 SPC is nothing but a dirt puncher beyond 300yds
Either caliber has factory available ammo that reaches superduper internet velocities.

 

[longdayjake]

Either caliber has factory available ammo that reaches superduper internet velocities.

Eh. I guess that depends on which internet velocities you are talking about.

 

[dzelenka]

If you can get at least 2400 fps out of a 120 gr Ballistic Tip, it will slay deer at 250 yards. I personally believe that you can do a bit better than that. If you are able to get beyond the proprietary cartridge issue, the 6.5 Grendel has sufficient power for deer hunting beyond the parameters you are setting.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

http://www.ar15pro.net/2009/11/65-grendel-anyone.html

My brother's wife took an Elk with a 6.5 Grendel last year.

 

[Taurus44]

I have 18" and 24" Grendel ARs myself. I've never owned or shot a 6.8SPC.

The 18" barrel will EASILY get you where you want to be. Combined with other quality hardware (and software), 18" is an honest 800 yard paper gun and 400 yard deer gun.



For the purposes and distances you originally asked about, a 16" barrel would be more than enough.

As for the handguard/rail... Look into the Troy TRX Extreme. It sounds like just the ticket for you.

 

[LensWork]

Good think you ask and do not jump right away into the next great AR-15 caliber everyone is trying to sell. Everything starts and ends with the bullet...............................................................


Cheers,
E.

Makes me really wish this forum had a "Helpful Post" rating button; this post certainly deserves it!

 

[1stmarine]

Dear fellow members,
Let me be clear when I say the 6.8 was not the best choice ballistically this is for my intended use. What works for me might not be the best for you. Ballistically we see a challenge with any high bore low grain bullets. I believe a good bullet it is good at short range as it is at long range. This doesn't mean that a lower ballistics cannot do a good job at shorter range. I have all those calibers and also look at the assortment in all calibers that can do the best job.

Regarding the barrels I think you are right, you can go shorter and do not need to go to 24" unless you do long range. At the time I got mine the people who cut the best barrels were match long barrels and Even Alexander admited these were use in the tests they published in their base lines when many folks said they could not get the performance originally advertised.

With all that said I do believe it is a great round at 18 or even 16". 6.8 SPC too I am just warning about long shot performances and folks also understand how to maximize performance out of those "good" bullets.

Again, everything starts and ends with the bullet. Hopefully a good one. Everything else is how to get that bullet from the box to the target.
WE LOVE ARs, don't we?!!!

Those barness TSX never failed me. Great post.

Cheers,
E.

 

[1stmarine]

6.8 SPC SSA factory ammo 16" barrel
100 Nosler-2700fps--drop9.0/809ft lbs
110 Nosler-2630fps--drop9.0/939ft lbs
110TSX-2630fps---drop 9.5/856ft lbs

68WJ,
I think that what you have there is the impact in inches and not the drop so check your sources. Even better go and measure you spreads as suggested above.

This is what the Verger would look like...
Range Velocity Impact Drop Energy
0 2630 -0.5 0 1766
100 2393 0 2.92 1462
200 2174 -5.61 11.96 1207
300 1966 -18.64 28.41 987

Just to for general information look a good 90gr in .243 bullet from a 6x45 casing...

Range Velocity Drop Energy
0 2850 0 1623
100 2607 2.5 1358
200 2384 10.14 1136
300 2173 23.94 944lbs/ft

This spread measured with a chrono RCBS Ammo Master. I measure all my loads in all calibers.
Same AR-15 bolt, Same everything. Only a barrel cut in 6mm.

Cheers,
E.