9mm & hiking: HST (or equivalent) HP only

[wild cat mccane]

Hello,

I'm an avid hiker in Utah. I guess I am unsure about what the different weights and +p do to the 124 and 147 9mm.

What type of hollow point is recommended in a 9mm in 124 or 147 grains in the Federal HST line (or equivalent critical defense/gold dot) is the best possible option? 124, 124 +p, 147, 147 +p.

Threats: Black bear , large cat, and random grow areas in the wild.
Barrel: 3 or 4 inch
No FMJ, thank you.

Thanks!

 

[Telekinesis]

Short answer, they're all pretty much the same.

Both the 124 and the 124+p are supersonic, while the 147 is subsonic. Not sure about the 147+p, but it's probably supersonic (or at least pretty close). But if you're not using a suppressor, it doesn't really matter.

If you're in a situation where any one of those don't work, choosing another from the same list wouldn't have changed the outcome.
Shoot what's most available or cheapest.

 

[lpsharp88]

If possible, get your hands on everything you want to try and see what you/your gun shoot best. Accurate hits are most important

 

[Teachu2]

http://www.sgammo.com/product/remin...en-saber-147-grain-brass-jacketed-hollow-poin

I like the heavier rounds, personally. Your threats are probably in reverse order - the wildlife will tend to avoid you.

 

[eldon519]

147s usually get more penetration. Hornady XTPs also tend to get pretty deep penetration. Penetration would be good for larger animals. Winchester Ranger Ts tend to also penetrate well. HST is a great round but tend to expand more and penetrate less than the Ranger or XTP.

 

[Snowdog]

It's hard to beat HST. The standard pressure 124gr HST is my go-to for everything but trail use.
If bear is among the threats you believe you may encounter, the heavier 147gr in +P might be a solid choice. I know you asked about defensive JHP only, but if you do happen across an inconsolable black bear, these would be more likely to punch through the bear's sloped skull while still providing nice terminal ballistics against a more human aggressor.
Yes, it's a pricey round and appears gimmicky. But after doing some extensive googlefoo on ballistic gel testing, it does appear to work.
It's the route I take for my XDm 4.5 in 357sig when hiking where the bears live.

 

[burk]

While I have no doubts about the 9mm's capability for human stoping with some of the newer ammo, Black Bear is a different creature.

With an animal as heavy (150-500 pounds) as a Black Bear with as thick a hide, there is no substitute for solid heavier bullets. I carry a .45 ACP in the northern Lower Peninsula of MI with 230 grain FMJ's. It's still a more than adequate people stopper but the issue of lack of penetration isn't there.

On Big Cats, if a big cat wants you, I doubt you're going to be able get your pistol out of a holster quick enough.

If you're talking the Griz, leave the toy guns at home. Minimum round is 44 mag in a 320 grain +P+, My Smith 29 comes out when I'm in Griz country.

 

[roscoe]

Buffalo Bore makes a 147 grain hardcast load that is going to be your best bet against bear:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=155

There are also 147-grain FMJ flat-point FMJ loads from DoubleTap and Underwood. Almost anything is better than a hollow point if you want to stop a bear. All of these loads penetrate a long way.

 

[dirtengineer]

Hard cast if there are bears.

 

[AlfonsDeWolf]

OP, you don't want to hear it, but heavy "solids" for rural threats. As for fmj vs your upright variety, 'they all hurt and dissuade'.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Fair enough for solid for penetration. I might be persuaded. I guess we tend to forget that works too.

However, if a solid isn't great for none four legged threats, why is it better for four legged threats?

On hard cast, I swear I've seen tests that show they tend to break up more than a copper fmj, Buffalo Boar in particular. What does a hard cast have over a standard hot/+p copper fmj?

 

[eldon519]

If you go with some kind of non-expanding option, make sure it at least has a flat point on it (meplat). RN like on most FMJ bullets leaves about the smallest permanent cavity possible for a given caliber. Flat points crush more tissue and leave a larger permanent cavity.

 

[Branko_D]

However, if a solid isn't great for none four legged threats, why is it better for four legged threats?

Well, with both four and two legged threats, penetration to the vitals is the first and foremost concern. Most modern handgun cartridges overpenetrate with FMJ or hard cast for the latter, so the energy and momentum is best used to create a larger wound channel. Hence, expanding ammo. The weaker or obsolete cartridges which do not have excess penetration should even there use FMJ or a classic lead SWC / RN.

However, for larger animals (such as, eg. bears) a typical modern handgun cartridge does not have any 'excess penetration', because the vitals are shielded by more tissue, the tissue itself is tougher and you have fur and thick skin to contend with. With expanding bullets they would underpenetrate, and underpenetration is a really bad thing. A SWC with a generous flat point (may have feeding issues in a semiauto) is a good choice for shooting large animals with a handgun.

Heavier bullet out of the same handgun will as a rule penetrate more deeply as it has more momentum. If shooting bears with a handgun, I'd say this is a good idea.

 

[BlindJustice]

I haven't seen much HST in SGs 'round here.

Let's keep in mind advertised/claimed velocity of
commercial mm Luger loads are with a 4" Bbl.
Same for .40 S&W
.45 ACP is 5" Bbl. shorter bbls = less velocity

Carry loads I have for a CZ 75B ( 4.7" Bbl )
+P Double Tap 147 gr. Gold Dot* JHP @ 1,120 FPS
+P Prograde 147 gr. hornady XTP JHPs @ 1,100 FPS

* Double Tap used to offer the Gold Dot but now offer
an alternative 'Bonded" jHP

Hard Cast Semi-Wadcutter were the way to go Pre-1969
when Lee Jarras offered the first JHPs with Super Vel ammo.

A hardcast SWC with the clasic Elmer Keith shape, the
conical flat nosed tip comes back until it meets the barrel
of the round leaving a small vertical shelf, Keith called
that the 'cutting edge.' whereas an FMJ just slips through
tisssue the SWC will cut and damage more tissue.

I have some .45 ACP & .45 Auto Rim with the hardcast
Leadhead 200 gr. SWC @ 1,000 FPS Cuts neat holes
in paper. But the carry load are 230 gr. HST JSPs fwiw

& Personallly, in Bear country I'd get a 10mm Auto if limited
to a handgun.

my $.02

Randall

R-

+P

 

[WYO]

Buffalo Bore makes a 147 grain hardcast load that is going to be your best bet against bear:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.ph...uct_list&c=155

I did a test of that round using a Glock 43 (3.4 inch barrel) with results shown here:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/10269292/Buffalo_Bore_9mm_147_Grain_+P_

It wasn't a theoretical exercise. We have game camera pictures of black bears, moose and a mountain lion within a few yards of the front door of our cabin. While I prefer the BB +P .45 ACP hard cast, my wife just won't carry a .45 in her hikes and trail runs in the woods. This load is the best bet in a Glock 43, and spare magazines contain standard hollow point ammo.

 

[AlfonsDeWolf]

OP, the fmj/hc suggestion is for bear really. Cats should be fine with hp's, probably best. And for bear, don't go looking for trouble and keep a good, clean camp. Pay attention to sounds, other than man they're the loudest, least respectful of their own noise beasts in the forests. When you hear em, give them wide berth and go the other way. If you're insistant and more comfortable with hp's, go with a heavy, moderate expanding one like the Hornady xtp. Fiocchi loads these in their Extrema still I think. Others also? You made a comment on Buffalo Bore's hc falling apart on gel impact.....might I suggest you are thinking of their .38 full lead hp fbi 158gr load? That is not a hard cast solid.

 

[rangerphil]

Hornady Critical Duty......look at the research. Bullet weights are heavy and penetration/weight retention is excellent.

 

[roscoe]

You may have to penetrate bone to stop a charging bear. Heavy hardcast gives you the best chance of doing that. 9mm might not be optimal, but there have been some big bears killed with that caliber. And a lightweight 9mm is more likely to be on your hip than the heavy .44 mag you didn't feel like lugging around all day. And don't worry about cats. If they want you, they got you (you won't even know they are there), but will generally leave you alone.

 

[AlfonsDeWolf]

Roscoe, I recall a story of a dude takin a dump in the backwoods of MT...a cat jumped him and he stuck a knife in cat's gut. Cat took off for dude to crap another day.

 

[wiiawiwb]

While I have no doubts about the 9mm's capability for human stoping with some of the newer ammo, Black Bear is a different creature.

With an animal as heavy (150-500 pounds) as a Black Bear with as thick a hide, there is no substitute for solid heavier bullets. I carry a .45 ACP in the northern Lower Peninsula of MI with 230 grain FMJ's. It's still a more than adequate people stopper but the issue of lack of penetration isn't there.

On Big Cats, if a big cat wants you, I doubt you're going to be able get your pistol out of a holster quick enough.

If you're talking the Griz, leave the toy guns at home. Minimum round is 44 mag in a 320 grain +P+, My Smith 29 comes out when I'm in Griz country.

Generally, I agree with everything you said. However, I've seen on YouTube and read about a few scenarios where a mountain lion patiently stalked or paralleled a person for a while in plain sight. Not sure if the cat was just curious or actually sizing up its potential quarry. It doesn't matter as that scenario would unnerve me were I to only have a 9mm.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Full disclosure, I carry bear spray and feel 100% confident in it. I just want the most ideal HP as a backup. HP knowing full well that I would reach for the spray first for a bear.

 

[WYO]

If bear spray is your first line of defense, your handgun isn’t going to be deployed until the bear spray has failed, which means you likely are in a ground fight with a vicious critter. In that case it should be something that can be fired limp wristed from weird positions at contact distance using ammo that will cycle under those conditions. I tested the ammo discussed in my post above using strong hand only and weak hand only, while severely limp wristing. It works for me. I am not saying that other stuff won’t do it, but you should test it out. Semi-autos lose some benefit in a ground fight.

 

[BSA1]

Let's keep in mind the main reason for concern about over penetration in humans is injuring other bystanders. and lawsuits.

Such concerns are not needed when confronting dangerous game. Actually through and through penetration is considered to be desirable.

 

[Paladin7]

Personally, I don't trust the 9mm in any of its loadings for your application. I would highly recommend the Glock in 10mm or go with a 44 revolver loaded with 250gr Keith style hard cast lead bullet at 1,000 fps. A good 44 Special or 44 Magnum light weight would be perfect.

A large cat or bear, when threatened, ie. you turn a corner and find yourself face to face with one, would be my concern. The 9mm is lacking for that application.