tws3b2
Member
At the ammo store today and they had some 9mm Nato on the shelves. Actually I've never seen it before. What's the difference in Nato and Luger? Would a Taurus g3c handle Nato rounds ?
9mm Nato
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9mm Nato is 9mm Luger/9mm parabellum/9x19 loaded to Nato specs. Should be safe in any modern gun, but often runs a bit warmer than US loaded 9mm.
JCooperfan1911
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The nato ammunition is loaded hot and heavy and is used by the military for use in pistols and burp guns. It’s good stuff. Just be aware it is loaded to higher pressures than standard Luger ball.
Jim Watson
Member
NATO is a military organization with specifications for ammunition, among many other things.
9mm NATO is 9x19/Luger/Parabellum manufactured to those specifications.
It is a bit more heavily loaded than US commercial 9mm but not so much as to beat up a sound gun.
9mm NATO is 9x19/Luger/Parabellum manufactured to those specifications.
It is a bit more heavily loaded than US commercial 9mm but not so much as to beat up a sound gun.
The 9mm NATO ammo issued to our troops is loaded a little faster than normally encountered with commercial ammo. A 124 gr bullet between 1150-1200 fps from a 4.5-5" barrel. Pretty much the same as +P commercial ammo. But commercial ammo labeled as "NATO" may, or may not be the same. Some manufactures just use the NATO moniker for marketing.
shoobe01
Member
NATO spec 9mm is great stuff for everyday shooting. It is all I run when I can get whatever ammo I want, and matches the exterior ballistics and perceived recoil of my defensive ammo (124 gold dots).
In the US it is also M882, loaded with a 124 grain bullet at a nominal 1140 fps.
Note that this is +/- the original Luger load, which was an 8 g (124 gr) JTC at similar pressures.
In the US it is also M882, loaded with a 124 grain bullet at a nominal 1140 fps.
Note that this is +/- the original Luger load, which was an 8 g (124 gr) JTC at similar pressures.
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tws3b2
Member
My Taurus g3c instruction manual warns not to use +P ammo but says nothing about the Nato rounds. So just wondering if it compares to the +P. Hate to mess up a brand new gun or void the warranty.
Jim Watson
Member
Strictly speaking 9mm NATO is SAAMI +P because it exceeds SAAMI maximum standard pressure even though it is not up to SAAMI +P MAXIMUM pressure.
(Quite a number of years ago, Norma had to relabel some ".38 Special Magnum" ammo as +P because it was just over the line.)
I would not be concerned over shooting it in MY guns but don't know about yours.
(Quite a number of years ago, Norma had to relabel some ".38 Special Magnum" ammo as +P because it was just over the line.)
I would not be concerned over shooting it in MY guns but don't know about yours.
CopperFouling
Member
If you reload, the brass is more than likely crimped and will add more steps to your reloading.
The NATO designation is not restricted, but ammo made to the NATO spec should bear a quartered circle headstamp. If it does not, it just means that the marketing department thought that designation sounded cool.
Jim Watson
Member
There has been seen NATO sigil brass in commercial boxes. Thought to be production overruns sent where the orders were.
lysanderxiii
Member
NATO loading is not "warmer" than commercial.
NATO specifications allow for a bullet mass of 7.0 to 8.3 g (108 to 128 gr) with a muzzle energy of 542 to 814 J (400 to 600 ft-lbs) from an 199mm (7.85 in) barrel. The average chamber pressure shall not be more than 230 MPa (transducer), or 33,359 psi, with no individual pressure exceeding 265 MPa (38,435 psi).
That comes out to a 108 gr bullet at 1291 fps minimum to 128 gr at 1453 fps maximum out of a 7.85" barrel. That means most commercial 9mm will easily mean these requirements.
German Patrone 08 = 8 g @ 312 m/s [124 gr @ 1,024 fps]
German Patrone 08 = 7.45 g @ 330 m/s [115 gr @ 1,082 fps]
German (post war) = 8 g @ 320 m/s (2200 bar) [124 gr @ 1,050 fps (31,908 psi)]
British Mk Iz = 115 gr @ 1200 fps at 20 yards (STEN barrel)
British Mk 2z = 115 gr @ 1300 fps at 20 yards (7.85 inch test barrel)
Canadian CDN Mk 1 = 115 gr @ 1250 fps (nominal) (7.85 inch test barrel)
US M882 = 124 gr @ 1,263 fps at 52.5 feet with an average pressure of 215 MPa (31,183 psi) and no individual pressure exceeding 250 MPa (36,259 psi) (7.85 inch test barrel).
SAAMI pressure limits for 9mm Luger are 35,000 psi (max average) and 36,100 psi (max average + 2 standard deviations) and 37,800 psi (max average + 5 SD). Some commercial 9mm data (some of which will meet NATO mass/energy requirements out of a nominal 4.5 inch barrel):
Federal 124 gr = 1150 fps
Federal 115 gr = 1180 fps
PMC 124 gr = 1110 fps
PMC 115 gr = 1150 fps
Privi 115 gr = 1148 fps
Remington 124 gr = 1100 fps
Remington 115 gr = 1155 fps
Winchester 124 gr = 1140 fps
Winchester 115 gr = 1190 fps
9mm +P has a pressure limit of 38,500 psi and a +2 SD of 39,700 psi. This is well above NATO limits.
NATO specifications allow for a bullet mass of 7.0 to 8.3 g (108 to 128 gr) with a muzzle energy of 542 to 814 J (400 to 600 ft-lbs) from an 199mm (7.85 in) barrel. The average chamber pressure shall not be more than 230 MPa (transducer), or 33,359 psi, with no individual pressure exceeding 265 MPa (38,435 psi).
That comes out to a 108 gr bullet at 1291 fps minimum to 128 gr at 1453 fps maximum out of a 7.85" barrel. That means most commercial 9mm will easily mean these requirements.
German Patrone 08 = 8 g @ 312 m/s [124 gr @ 1,024 fps]
German Patrone 08 = 7.45 g @ 330 m/s [115 gr @ 1,082 fps]
German (post war) = 8 g @ 320 m/s (2200 bar) [124 gr @ 1,050 fps (31,908 psi)]
British Mk Iz = 115 gr @ 1200 fps at 20 yards (STEN barrel)
British Mk 2z = 115 gr @ 1300 fps at 20 yards (7.85 inch test barrel)
Canadian CDN Mk 1 = 115 gr @ 1250 fps (nominal) (7.85 inch test barrel)
US M882 = 124 gr @ 1,263 fps at 52.5 feet with an average pressure of 215 MPa (31,183 psi) and no individual pressure exceeding 250 MPa (36,259 psi) (7.85 inch test barrel).
SAAMI pressure limits for 9mm Luger are 35,000 psi (max average) and 36,100 psi (max average + 2 standard deviations) and 37,800 psi (max average + 5 SD). Some commercial 9mm data (some of which will meet NATO mass/energy requirements out of a nominal 4.5 inch barrel):
Federal 124 gr = 1150 fps
Federal 115 gr = 1180 fps
PMC 124 gr = 1110 fps
PMC 115 gr = 1150 fps
Privi 115 gr = 1148 fps
Remington 124 gr = 1100 fps
Remington 115 gr = 1155 fps
Winchester 124 gr = 1140 fps
Winchester 115 gr = 1190 fps
9mm +P has a pressure limit of 38,500 psi and a +2 SD of 39,700 psi. This is well above NATO limits.
22250Rem
Member
....That's roughly what I was told by the gunsmith / gun shop owner about that NATO spec 9mm stuff that he sold me back around 2002 when I inherited a German Luger and was wondering about ammo because I had heard that the original 9mm ammo for them had to be loaded pretty warm to operate that big toggle on them. Sold me some 124 gr. NATO spec 9mm loaded by Federal...
...
... and told me that it's basically just +P stuff and should cycle the Luger just fine. That warning about for use in firearms approved for 9mm NATO ammunition only is just their way of saying that it's +P.. It works fine in the Luger but since then I also discovered that standard 9mm ammo also works good. So I don't really know how much hotter than standard it is. Too bad I never chronographed it versus a standard 9mm load. Maybe someday........
Gridley
Member
Perhaps I'm misreading what you wrote, but it looks like you're saying the *nominal* pressure for 9mm NATO is lower than the SAAMI for 9mm Luger, but NATO has a larger tolerance - enough larger that the upper end of the tolerance bracket is outside the SAAMI tolerance range. If so then "high but barely conforming" 9mm NATO ammo *would* exceed the allowable limits for 9mm Luger. If that's how manufacturers actually commonly load 9mm NATO, then it would be a reasonable statement that 9mm NATO is a "hotter" round since you CAN commonly get 9mm NATO that exceeds 9mm Luger standards.
Put another way a firearm chambered for 9mm NATO could safely fire either type of ammo, but one chambered for 9mm Luger couldn't safely fire all 9mm NATO, yes? Easy then to see why 9mm NATO gets called the 'hotter' standard, even if it is an oversimplification.
Several years ago I bought a box of Winchester white box value pack, 115 gr. bullets. The headstamps were WWC with the NATO markings. I figured it was an overrun of casings. Nothing on the box stated NATO.
fxvr5
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tark
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It is also above SAAMI specs for 38 Super, which comes in at 36,500 PSI. Hot stuff !!
fxvr5
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It depends on what you consider hot. 9X23 Winchester has a pressure limit of 55,000 psi.
lysanderxiii
Member
No, the average pressure is the limit has to be met, the upper bounds are there to control the variation.
The statistical extreme upper limit for SAAMI is 37,800 psi (+ 5 SD), and the absolute upper limit for NATO is 38,435 psi ("shall not exceed").
The difference is that the statistical upper limit might be exceeded, but it would be very rare (>0.1%) and the absolute upper limit will never be exceeded (0%). The difference between >0.1% and 0% is probably more than 635 psi.
For all practical purposed, they are the same.
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lysanderxiii
Member
Don't believe Wikipedia.
I gave the official NATO requirements right from STANAG 4090.
The NATO average pressure shall be 33,359 psi (transducer), actually 1,641 psi LOWER than the SAAMI maximum average pressure.
Many people incorrectly read the STANAG C.U.P. pressure of 37,000 psi and compare that to the transducer SAAMI limit of 35,000 psi.
As I stated above, for all practical purposes, they are the same.
Rock185
Member
I see much concern and discussion on the internet about using High Pressure/ "Hot", etc. 9mm NATO. So tws3b2, I cant say if your Taurus can handle NATO or not, but FWIW, I have used many thousands of rounds of 9mm NATO in various pistols and revolvers over the past 20+ years. The NATO does average about 50-100 FPS more velocity than regular commercial ammo in my guns. The only issue I've run into is when I tried to use a lighter mainspring in a revolver. I got some light primer strikes. The Winchester and IMI NATO, and newer Winchester M1152, ammo use the hardest primers I've encountered in factory 9mm ammunition, and my revolvers require factory mainsprings for reliable ignition. I've never had a round of NATO fail to fire in a any of my semi-autos. Otherwise, I've just not had any issues in using 9mm NATO as a range target/plinking round in my guns. I've also been issued, and/or purchased, quite a bit of factory +P, and used equivalent reloaded 9mm ammo. No issues with that either........YMMV
OP
OP
tws3b2
Member
To tell you the truth. I'm not able to wrap my brain around all those numbers above. Just kinda weakens my mainspring to try and understand it all.
Anyway, Your answer is more like I was looking for.
What happened is, I walked into the ammo department and there was 9 mm ammo on the shelves. I reached out and grabbed two boxes and headed for the check-out. It had been so long since I've seen any handgun ammo on the shelf that I felt like I better grab some and get out of the store before I got arrested or something.
When I get home one box is 9mm luger hollow point and the other 9mm 124 gr. NATO. No return on ammo.
tark
Member
Amen to that. Wiki occasionally gets it wrong. According to them, Remington chambered their #1 rolling block in 30-06. Wrong, they never did.
Airborne Falcon
Member
I dunno about all of that friend ... but I know NATO 9mm would be considered +P by any standards when compared to civilian ammo.
I've shot a lot of it on everything from breaching teams to pistol teams and NATO can be so hot .... well, it's made for both pistol use and SMG use.
Now, there is a caveat. Some of the old Hirt NATO 9mm was more +P+ and that was definitely because it was more SMG-centric (particularly MP5 and UZI) than it was pistol specific. NATO no longer issues that Hirt NATO spec stuff after the famous "you're not a SEAL until you've eaten Italian steel" incident.
Of course the SIG P226s never had problems with the Hirt 9mm NATO but ... regardless, they only toned it down to +P.
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243winxb
Member
https://saami.org/technical-information/unsafe-firearm-ammunition-combinations/ I would not shoot +P or NATO out of my little plastic G3C.
SAAMI Said NO NATO. View attachment 1005537
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