A different view of the Total Information Awareness program...

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Preacherman

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I'm as worried about "Big Brother" and Big Government as the next guy, and I find the invasion of privacy envisioned in the Homeland Security Act to be intolerable from a personal perspective. However, there is another view, and the author does make some points that are making me re-evaluate my approach. I'm not likely to change my mind, but in some areas, I might have to allow more leeway before I scream "Enough!". What do you think?

From the Weekly Standard (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/137dvufs.asp?ZoomFont=YES):

Total Misrepresentation
From the January 27, 2003 issue: There's a compelling case to be made for the Pentagon's Total Information Awareness program.
by Heather Mac Donald
01/27/2003, Volume 008, Issue 19

EVERY WEEK brings new evidence of al Qaeda's continuing plots against the United States and the West. Yet the 108th Congress may well shut down one of the most promising efforts to preempt future attacks, thanks to a media misinformation blitz playing to Americans' outsized Big Brother paranoia.

The Pentagon's prestigious research unit, the same Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency that helped invent the Internet, is exploring whether computers could detect terrorist planning activity by searching government and commercial databases across the globe. The program, dubbed Total Information Awareness (TIA), embodies the recognition that before an attack can take place, certain critical activities--casing targets, rehearsing, and procuring financing, supplies, and weapons--must occur, and that those activities will leave computer signatures. Had even a simple data-mining program been in place before 9/11, a majority of the hijackers could have been identified. Remember that two of the 9/11 hijackers were already on a State Department watch list. When Khalid Almidhar and Nawaq Alhazmi bought their tickets on American Airlines Flight 77 in August, a search for people sharing addresses and frequent flier numbers with these al Qaeda operatives, as well as of their telephone contacts, would have uncovered over half the plotters.

In early November, both the Washington Post and the New York Times reported on the Total Information Awareness project without causing a ripple of concern. Then on November 14, New York Times pundit William Safire let fly with a column entitled "You Are a Suspect." He declared that "in the next few weeks," the government would compile a computer dossier on "every public and every private act of every American" unless TIA were stopped.

The media world uncorked the champagne bottles. Stories about the imminent advent of Big Brother rolled non-stop across television screens and newspaper editorial pages. In a typically garbled outburst of zeal, law professor Jonathan Turley wrote in the Los Angeles Times: "Long thought dead, it now appears that Orwell is busy at work in the darkest recesses of the Bush administration and its new Information Awareness Office." Politicians rushed to express their dismay and promised to defund this new Bush initiative to strip Americans of their freedom.

To call the Safire column and its progeny caricatures of the Pentagon project is too charitable. Their disconnection from reality was total. The notion that the program would result in "computer dossiers on 300 million Americans," as Safire exclaimed and dozens of editorialists echoed, is pure fiction. The TIA researchers are trying to teach computers to recognize suspicious patterns of activity in the billions of transactions that occur across the world daily; compiling dossiers on every American never enters the picture. The program--which is still at the idea stage--would start by mapping the personal networks of known terrorists and suspects, a traditional investigative technique merely given more juice by massive computing power. If John Doe placed several calls to Mohamed Atta before 9/11, that information would most certainly be stored for future reference, and any other of Mr. Doe's transactions with Islamic radicals would be flagged. His neighbor's purchase of golf clubs with a Visa card, on the other hand, would be invisible to the TIA computers.

Also left out of the nightmare scenarios are the numerous privacy protections being built into TIA. The program would sever names and other personal information from transactions. An analyst could query, for example, whether anyone had bought unusually large quantities of bomb-making chemicals and rented a large truck recently. The program might say yes, such a pattern had occurred, but it would not reveal the names of the people pursuing it unless the disclosure were approved by a judge or other legal authority. Like criminal investigators, analysts using TIA would be given access to private data only if their case for seeking it met certain legal standards. The program would also contain audit mechanisms automatically tracing where data are sent and who has seen them. Oversight would be built into the system. Policymakers should of course provide for criminal penalties for any abuses.

Equally specious has been the critics' personalizing of TIA as the devilish ambition of its director, Admiral John Poindexter. Poindexter was President Reagan's national security adviser and a lead player in the Iran-contra scandal. Safire claims that "Poindexter is now realizing his 20-year dream: getting the data mining power to snoop on every public and private act of every American." Safire doesn't reveal how he knows what Poindexter has been dreaming for the last 20 years. Every privacy paranoiac has milked Poindexter's involvement in Iran-contra for all it's worth, and indeed, the Bush administration should have foreseen the ad hominem potential of his appointment. But the critics' charge that TIA represents Poindexter's personal desire to "monitor every aspect of your life," in the words of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, is absurd. Should the technology prove feasible, Pentagon researchers would deliver it to law enforcement agencies like the FBI and the CIA to operate; Poindexter would have nothing to do with its implementation.

The reaction to TIA is a textbook case of privacy hysteria. The Bush administration had better learn how to counter such outbreaks, for they will resurface with every new initiative to improve the country's intelligence capacity. They follow a predictable script:

- Barely mention the motivation for the initiative, if at all. Safire, like several of his followers, writes an entire column on TIA without once referring to terrorism or the 9/11 strikes.

- Never, ever suggest an alternative. Islamic terrorists wear no uniforms, carry no particular passport, and live inconspicuously among the target population for years. Many, sometimes all, of the steps leading up to an attack are legal; they become suspicious only when combined in a particular way in a particular context. TIA's critics adamantly oppose using data mining to detect suspicious patterns of activity in civilian populations, but they never propose an alternative method to find the terrorist enemy before he strikes.

Remember the outcry after 9/11 over the intelligence community's failure to "connect the dots"? TIA is nothing other than a connect-the-dots tool, with a global scope that individual analysts cannot hope to match. Do its detractors simply hope that as the next attack nears, the same intelligence analysts who failed us last time, using the same inadequate tools, will get it right this time? They do not say.

- Assume the worst; ignore the best. The Kansas City Star editorializes that if TIA proceeds, "Uncle Sam could end up listening to your phone conversations, reading your e-mail and monitoring your shopping trips." Well, yes, if defense intelligence analysts lose interest in al Qaeda and develop so strong a fascination with the quotidian affairs of John Q. Public that they are willing to risk their careers to abuse the system, that could happen. But the lawful use of TIA could also stop a smallpox release at Disneyland. TIA would allow investigators to identify, say, visa holders from terror-associated countries who had spent more than a month in Afghanistan during Taliban days and who also shared addresses, phone numbers, or credit cards; it could spot airline ticket holders who had telephoned people on terror watch lists over the past year; and it could determine which visa applicants had traveled to certain cities contemporaneously with terrorist activity.

- Use a privacy balancing test when pursuing your own interests, but demand privacy absolutism regarding the public good. Americans are credit card junkies, cell phone aficionados, ATM devotees, and Internet shoppers. All of these consumer conveniences transfer vast swaths of personal information to corporations, which then often sell it for additional profit. Americans happily balance the privacy risk of electronic communications against the concomitant increase in personal ease, and often decide that convenience trumps privacy. But let the government propose to protect the public good by using data that Americans have freely provided to companies, and the citizenry become privacy dogmatists. No matter how many lives might be saved if the government could analyze nameless bytes of data for signs of deadly transactions, one's own alleged right not to have a government computer scan a database containing one's Christmas purchases is more important.

- Never specify to what exactly in the proposed program you object. Every element of TIA is now legal and already in effect. The government already has access to private databases for investigatory purposes, but searching them is extremely cumbersome for lack of decent software. Likewise, the government can legally search its own computers, but that capacity, too, is constrained by primitive technology. TIA's enemies have not called for ending intelligence access to private or public databases, so their gripe ultimately boils down to the possibility that the government might do what it is already doing more efficiently. The rule appears to be of Luddite origin: The terrorists can expertly exploit our technology against us, but we must fight back with outdated, inadequate tools.

- Confuse cause and effect. TIA critics warn of impending totalitarianism should the research continue. A syndicated columnist for the Orlando Sentinel announced that the country was being "Stalinized." But totalitarian states do not arise because they marginally increase their access to personal data, they arise when social order is collapsing, as Amitai Etzioni has pointed out. The chance that the U.S. government will become a police state because it is better able to analyze private transactions for signs of terrorism is virtually nil; the chance would be greater, however, if the country were to experience a series of devastating attacks and confidence in the government's ability to protect the public safety were to evaporate.

The Pentagon's data mining project could easily go down in the next few months. A mongrel coalition of advocacy groups, ranging from the Free Congress Foundation and Grover Norquist's Americans for Tax Reform on the right to the ACLU on the left, has made the defeat of TIA its top priority for the year. Last year a similar effort killed off TIPS--a Justice Department proposal for reporting possible terrorist activity. Senator Ron Wyden introduced an amendment last week to defund TIA until Congress reviews it; other senators planning similar legislation include Dianne Feinstein, Daniel Inouye, and Russell Feingold. And the coalition of critics is pressuring a range of congressional committees to pull the plug. Should they succeed, Americans will be deprived of an essential tool to stop terrorist plots before they climax, even as al Qaeda's operatives are busily logging on and designing their next evil deed.


Heather Mac Donald is a contributing editor at the Manhattan Institute's City Journal and the author of "Are Cops Racist? How the War Against the Police Harms Black Americans" (Ivan R. Dee, 2003).
 
From the January 27, 2003 issue: There's a compelling case to be made for the Pentagon's Total Information Awareness program.
One that is in blatant violation of the 4th and 5th amendments to the Constitution of the United States.
EVERY WEEK brings new evidence of al Qaeda's continuing plots against the United States and the West.
Really? Like what? All I see are hairsprayed talking heads doing what they do best: selling us on our own doom. Of course, they're aided and abetted by those gov't employees who are media-savvy enough to know that they can ensure their own job security by constantly menacing us with a neverending parade of turban wearing hobgoblins.
The Pentagon's prestigious research unit, the same Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency that helped invent the Internet,
Funny, I thought Al invented the internet.
The program, dubbed Total Information Awareness (TIA), embodies the recognition that before an attack can take place, certain critical activities--casing targets, rehearsing, and procuring financing, supplies, and weapons--must occur, and that those activities will leave computer signatures.
Unless the perps do things like use those funny paper things called 'cash.' And gee, I thought that all those other swell gov't run programs were supposed to keep us safe from the monster under the bed. Isn't that the point of things like passports? If such things have obviously failed so utterly in the past, why should the future be any different?
Had even a simple data-mining program been in place before 9/11, a majority of the hijackers could have been identified.
Unlikely, as they would have been aware of the TIA program, and therefore modified their behavior accordingly. Human nature isn't a zero-sum game.
Then on November 14, New York Times pundit William Safire let fly with a column entitled "You Are a Suspect." He declared that "in the next few weeks," the government would compile a computer dossier on "every public and every private act of every American" unless TIA were stopped.
Yet, Heather, you don't posit an alternative for stopping your hobgoblins that doesn't involve snooping into my life.
The media world uncorked the champagne bottles. Stories about the imminent advent of Big Brother rolled non-stop across television screens and newspaper editorial pages.
You mean to say that the media actually did its job for once? And this irritates you why?
In a typically garbled outburst of zeal, law professor Jonathan Turley wrote in the Los Angeles Times: "Long thought dead, it now appears that Orwell is busy at work in the darkest recesses of the Bush administration and its new Information Awareness Office."
Doesn't seem garbled to me in the least. Of course, maybe you never read '1984' or 'Animal Farm.'
The notion that the program would result in "computer dossiers on 300 million Americans," as Safire exclaimed and dozens of editorialists echoed, is pure fiction. The TIA researchers are trying to teach computers to recognize suspicious patterns of activity in the billions of transactions that occur across the world daily; compiling dossiers on every American never enters the picture.
Really? Well how can the computer possibly recognize these patterns without allowed wanton access to data on every American? Please explain, after all, I doubt that Ahmed the terrorist's small business American Express card is listed as belonging to Hezbollah.
Mr. Doe's transactions with Islamic radicals would be flagged. His neighbor's purchase of golf clubs with a Visa card, on the other hand, would be invisible to the TIA computers.
Well then, I guess that Mr. Doe would only have to ask his neighbor to purchase weapons, ammo, or other flagged materials in order to stay off the list. Or were you planning on making all transactions involving firearms and mothballs an automatic red flag?
Also left out of the nightmare scenarios are the numerous privacy protections being built into TIA. The program would sever names and other personal information from transactions.
Right. I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
An analyst could query, for example, whether anyone had bought unusually large quantities of bomb-making chemicals and rented a large truck recently.
So it would indeed flag my purchase of mothballs after all. Hmmm.
The program might say yes, such a pattern had occurred, but it would not reveal the names of the people pursuing it unless the disclosure were approved by a judge or other legal authority.
Except that under the USA PATRIOT Act, a warrant isn't necessarily required if/when dealing with a suspected terrorist, so I guess they wouldn't need a warrant now, would they?
The program would also contain audit mechanisms automatically tracing where data are sent and who has seen them. Oversight would be built into the system. Policymakers should of course provide for criminal penalties for any abuses.
*snort* That's rich. Who's watching the Watchers? Why, the Watchers, of course! You have nothing to be concerned about. Go back to sleep.
Safire doesn't reveal how he knows what Poindexter has been dreaming for the last 20 years. Every privacy paranoiac has milked Poindexter's involvement in Iran-contra for all it's worth, and indeed, the Bush administration should have foreseen the ad hominem potential of his appointment.
Well, yeah, I guess that hiring a convicted felon isn't a real swell idea, now is it.:scrutiny:
Pentagon researchers would deliver it to law enforcement agencies like the FBI and the CIA to operate; Poindexter would have nothing to do with its implementation.
SFW, the TIA thing is his brainchild, which makes it his responsibility, which makes him an ardent crypto-fascist, whether or not he wants to know if I squeeze the Charmin is quite beside the point, so :neener:
The reaction to TIA is a textbook case of privacy hysteria. The Bush administration had better learn how to counter such outbreaks, for they will resurface with every new initiative to improve the country's intelligence capacity.
No, not if you keep the country's intelligence capacity aimed where it should be: at CRIMINALS and LEGITIMATE suspects.
They follow a predictable script:
Like you with your 'Give me security, not freedom' mutterings?
Barely mention the motivation for the initiative, if at all. Safire, like several of his followers, writes an entire column on TIA without once referring to terrorism or the 9/11 strikes.
You don't possibly think that would have anything to do with the fact that we've been beaten over the head with every conceivable interpretation of 9|11, as well as inundated with stupid color codes, false threats, and any manner of scary doomsday scenario, do you?
- Never, ever suggest an alternative.
How about this: A non-interventionist foreign policy, so these people don't have a reason to try to kill us. When was the last time you heard of, say, Sweden getting hit by militant Islamic terrorists? They don't want us there, and more importantly, I don't want us there.
Many, sometimes all, of the steps leading up to an attack are legal; they become suspicious only when combined in a particular way in a particular context.
Gee, and how many innocent people are going to get caught up in this huge net you're tossing out? Will a person's life be ruined because he buys a hunting rifle one week, a couple packages of Dran-o the next, and then shows up on the security cameras taking a tour of the CIA HQ?
TIA's critics adamantly oppose using data mining to detect suspicious patterns of activity in civilian populations,
Gee, maybe because they recognize an individual's 4th amendment rights, and a right to privacy. Do you think that might have something to do with it?
but they never propose an alternative method to find the terrorist enemy before he strikes.
Because the terrorist chooses the method, the place, and the time of the attack. Institute all of the intelligence gathering you want, it's still not going to stop someone who's determined to pull off some sort of attack. That's just the nature of the beast, recognize it and move on.
Do its detractors simply hope that as the next attack nears, the same intelligence analysts who failed us last time, using the same inadequate tools, will get it right this time? They do not say.
Wait, so what you're saying is that TIA is nothing more than the same thing we had before 9|11, but, well, bigger and more expensive? Isn't one definition of insanity doing the same thing and expecting different results?
Well, yes, if defense intelligence analysts lose interest in al Qaeda and develop so strong a fascination with the quotidian affairs of John Q. Public that they are willing to risk their careers to abuse the system, that could happen.
So the only hope of privacy I have in a TIA system is the fact that my barcode is pretty much the same as the barcodes on everyone around me? Besides, at the beginning of the article you were talking about how it wouldn't retain data on Joe Shmoe.
But the lawful use of TIA could also stop a smallpox release at Disneyland. TIA would allow investigators to identify, say, visa holders from terror-associated countries who had spent more than a month in Afghanistan during Taliban days and who also shared addresses, phone numbers, or credit cards; it could spot airline ticket holders who had telephoned people on terror watch lists over the past year; and it could determine which visa applicants had traveled to certain cities contemporaneously with terrorist activity.
All specious arguments. I have a rock on my desk. I have never been attacked by a tiger. Therefore the rock must repel tigers.
Americans happily balance the privacy risk of electronic communications against the concomitant increase in personal ease, and often decide that convenience trumps privacy.
Hmm, but that's a system that one can voluntarily opt out of. So I guess that I would be able to opt out of having a TIA record as well?
No matter how many lives might be saved if the government could analyze nameless bytes of data for signs of deadly transactions, one's own alleged right not to have a government computer scan a database containing one's Christmas purchases is more important.
In the immortal words of Dennis Leary: Bleepin'-A right.
Never specify to what exactly in the proposed program you object.
How about this: Compiling a database of information on people WHO AREN'T EVEN SUSPECTS IN A CRIME! How about the fact that the law isn't required to get a warrant before culling this data and collecting it.
The terrorists can expertly exploit our technology against us, but we must fight back with outdated, inadequate tools.
I fail to see how flying planes into buildings is expertly exploiting our technology against us.
The chance that the U.S. government will become a police state because it is better able to analyze private transactions for signs of terrorism is virtually nil;
Says you. Who made you an authority on the subject?
The Pentagon's data mining project could easily go down in the next few months.
Good riddance.
A mongrel coalition of advocacy groups, ranging from the Free Congress Foundation and Grover Norquist's Americans for Tax Reform on the right to the ACLU on the left, has made the defeat of TIA its top priority for the year.
It doesn't strike you as odd that pretty much everyone, left, right, centrist, libertarian, etc. think that this is a horribly bad idea?
Should they succeed, Americans will be deprived of an essential tool to stop terrorist plots before they climax, even as al Qaeda's operatives are busily logging on and designing their next evil deed.
A specious argument to say the least.

This sort of thing really makes me :fire: :fire: :fire:
 
TIA B.S.

Had even a simple data-mining program been in place before 9/11, a majority of the hijackers could have been identified. Remember that two of the 9/11 hijackers were already on a State Department watch list.

Hmm. Maybe if the FBI had followed up on Tips from the CIA prior to 9/11, or had the FBI hadnt been such a beauricratic mess and prevented one of it's own agents from following up on leads.



Their disconnection from reality was total. The notion that the program would result in "computer dossiers on 300 million Americans," as Safire exclaimed and dozens of editorialists echoed, is pure fiction. The TIA researchers are trying to teach computers to recognize suspicious patterns of activity in the billions of transactions that occur across the world daily; compiling dossiers on every American never enters the picture.

This will actually be much easier once this technology, Auto-ID RF tags, enters everything we purchase and use. Not mention that TIA's website graphic has changed recently. Showing they wanted to collect biometric data such your IRIS, Fingerprints, Facial Recognition, how you walk (aka Gait). Now the image on their website is something more abstract, and less specific. TIA's website now. Here is the graphic they used to have UP on their website.


Don't tell me they dont want to compile a dossier on you your family, but also track your movements.
 
I enjoyed Justin's EXCELLENT "blow by blow" analysis of this article. Good Stuff!

Personally, I blew off the article when I read this:
Also left out of the nightmare scenarios are the numerous privacy protections being built into TIA. The program would sever names and other personal information from transactions.

If the program severs names, how would it be useful in finding WHO is preparing a terrorist act? Sounds like an exrcise in wishful thinking to me.

Will red lights be flashing and warning buzzers be going off every spring as farmers purchase tons of fertilizer? Then again during every May and June when sales of fireworks and other explosive materials increase? Then as other agencies in that vast new wasteland known as the Dept. of Homeland Security get their hands on this data perhaps we will be treated to pinpoint propaganda in public service commercials. An increase in Twinkie sales will trigger anti-fat ads, a drop in car sales will trigger "support our economy" ads, an increase in tobacco sales will trigger madness among the anti-tobacco nazis.

From ANY perspective TIA is evil, a waste of time, a waste of money and just another pointless Poindexter type program.

Chipper
 
You know, we are talking about the military/government here. If they really want this, they will slap top secret on it and build it anyway. Like Hoover and his fetish for wire taps, as long as they are not going to use the information in open court, there is little the public would know or can do.


However, some of this isn't all bad. I agree with Preacherman and add that I don't have the answer on how much is too much. I also agree with Ben Franklin's, "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. " But does any or all of this constitute losing freedoms? Some of it yes and some of it no.


"EVERY WEEK brings new evidence of al Qaeda's continuing plots against the United States and the West."

Really? Like what? All I see are hairsprayed talking heads doing what they do best: selling us on our own doom.
Do you really think they are telling everything they know about terrorist operations to the public now? Not a chance. The heads are trying to sell air time.

"The Pentagon's prestigious research unit, the same Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency that helped invent the Internet,"

Funny, I thought Al invented the internet.

They did, Al didn't.

"The program, dubbed Total Information Awareness (TIA), embodies the recognition that before an attack can take place, certain critical activities--casing targets, rehearsing, and procuring financing, supplies, and weapons--must occur, and that those activities will leave computer signatures."

Unless the perps do things like use those funny paper things called 'cash.' And gee, I thought that all those other swell gov't run programs were supposed to keep us safe from the monster under the bed. Isn't that the point of things like passports? If such things have obviously failed so utterly in the past, why should the future be any different?

Good. It attracts a whole lot more attention dealing in thousands of dollars in cash than by electronic banking transactions.

"Had even a simple data-mining program been in place before 9/11, a majority of the hijackers could have been identified."

Unlikely, as they would have been aware of the TIA program, and therefore modified their behavior accordingly. Human nature isn't a zero-sum game.

That would be good. Limiting or cutting off their use of the internet to plan terrorist acts makes it hard to do and makes getting caught more likely.

"Mr. Doe's transactions with Islamic radicals would be flagged. His neighbor's purchase of golf clubs with a Visa card, on the other hand, would be invisible to the TIA computers. "

Well then, I guess that Mr. Doe would only have to ask his neighbor to purchase weapons, ammo, or other flagged materials in order to stay off the list. Or were you planning on making all transactions involving firearms and mothballs an automatic red flag?

Firearms are already red flagged. It's called Instant Background Check.

"An analyst could query, for example, whether anyone had bought unusually large quantities of bomb-making chemicals and rented a large truck recently."

So it would indeed flag my purchase of mothballs after all. Hmmm.

It's funny that we complain because granny is getting strip searched at the airport yet they do not search the 18-40 year old mid-eastern males arriving with a visa because they don't want to be called racist for using racial profiling.

However, we don't want them to monitor chemical companies to see if a 18-40 year old mid-eastern male here on a visa is buying a couple of tons of fertilizer to grow flowers in the back of his Ryder truck.
 
It's funny that we complain because granny is getting strip searched at the airport yet they do not search the 18-40 year old mid- eastern males arriving with a visa because they don't want to be called racist for using racial profiling.
Your objection is invalid; these are two entirely seperate arguments. I object to anyone being strip-searched at the airport, Granny Miller or Khalid Mustafa.

Justin really didn't leave much else for me to say. I'll just wander off and wonder about the defenders of the indefenseable....

- Chris
 
- Barely mention the motivation for the initiative, if at all.

It has been mentioned. Opponents of TIA believe the motivation for the database is control of citizens, and hunting terrorists is just the excuse.

- Never, ever suggest an alternative.

Alternatives have been suggested. Implementing "guilty until proven innocent" is not a valid alternative. Violating the 4th Amendment is not a valid alternative. Forgetting that terrorists operate via loopholes is not a valid alternative. Restoring the 2nd Amendment IS an alternative. Actually using the resources already available IS an alternative.

- Assume the worst; ignore the best.

When handing tremendous power to a government, you'd better assume the worst. Review 20th Century history for what happens when a beaurocracy gets in control of individual information.

Worst case: 300,000,000 people have every action scrutinized and are presumed guilty unless proven innocent.

Best case: 30 terrorists change their tactics and evade the system and don't get caught.

That's a pretty lousy best case relative to a horrific worst case.

- Use a privacy balancing test when pursuing your own interests, but demand privacy absolutism regarding the public good.

That's the point of a free country: _I_ get to decide who gets my private info, not some faceless burrowcrap who will have me jailed if I don't hand that private info over.

- Never specify to what exactly in the proposed program you object.

HELLO! THE WHOLE THING! And every bit that violate the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and other Amendments.

For now, the gov't only works on info that individuals have either voluntarily released, or has been obtained by a search warrant. TIA removes the 4th Amendment restriction and gathers EVERYTHING.

- Confuse cause and effect.

Cause: give gov't power to review all private data. Effect: tyrrany. Don't agree? read history.

Here's a TIA "cause and effect":
I innocently buy some gasoline. At the same station at the same time, Mohammed Atta also buys gas. The TIA system links the two credit card purchases (same time, place, activity) and watches me until convinced there is no other relationship beyond sheer coincidence. Guilty until proven innocent.

I'm switching to cash.
 
" If the program severs names, how would it be useful in finding WHO is preparing a terrorist act? Sounds like an exrcise in wishful thinking to me."

Leaving names off wouldn't be much of a problem... they'd have ss numbers, visa numbers, bank account numbers, addresses, and a list of last 20 gasoline purchases on credit cards. How hard would it be to come up with a name having all that stuff? Worrying over name inclusion is ignoring the larger problem.
 
I get the feeling the Constitution is kind of like "taking out the trash"... I will do if and when I feel like it; until such time, nope...
 
I might have to allow more leeway before I scream "Enough!". What do you think?


I think I smell boiled frog.



Opponents of TIA believe the motivation for the database is control of citizens, and hunting terrorists is just the excuse.


Let me re-phrase that so that it becomes a true statement.

Opponents of TIA believe the motivation for the database is hunting terrorists, but control of citizens will be the inevitable result.

When you build a machine (whether that's a gummit program or new technology) that gives more power to the gummit, you make that machine available to the next administration, and the next, and the next...

Do you really want a Hillary to have the kind of raw power that is being created by the TIA? I have no doubts at all as to the purity of the motives of GW or John Ashcroft. I am quite convinced that they intend to do good, and ONLY good, for America.

I am also convinced that they have done more damage to our freedom than Bill Clinton ever did.
 
I am sick unto death of various gov't and statist advocates looking for one magic bullet which is used will stop whatever boogie man is charging us.

Most recent example is ballistic fingerprinting, something demonstrated to be an unbelievable waste of money and resources; resources which would better spent engaging in legitimate law enforcement activities. Instead of developing suspects, resources will be spent excluding the innocents.

TIA is consistent with the same philosophy. Let's make everyone a suspect then spend time and resources eliminating individuals. Yea, that's smart. Why not spend time in intelligence and LE investigators who develop a panel of suspects then investigate them.

Remember, there was plenty of warning of 9-11 attacks. The raw data was there. What kept us from seeing it was a lack of analysis, and an unwillingness on the part of several federal agencies to a>act, and b>cooperate with other agencies. Neither problem is fixed with TIA, What will fix the true problem is a public field dressing of the wool suits in relevant federal agencies. Use the example of said bureaucrats to instill a willingness to DO THEIR FREAKIN' JOBS. There job is to find badguys not harass the taxpaying or largess classes.

TIA is a hobby horse for a convicted felon and a fig leaf for the federales should another 911 calliber attack occur. I don't feel like selling my freedom to a bureaucrat for a soft and fuzzy feelng that I'm safe. I'd rather see the US develop a hard edge in the search for terrorists.
 
Stumbled across a quote that is nicely applicable:

You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
 
I am also convinced that they have done more damage to our freedom than Bill Clinton ever did.

Considering Clinton was offered bin Laden's head on a platter THREE times and turned it down AND he is the one that relaxed the sanctions against Iraq and had the US start buying oil from them AND he is the one that approved and provided funds for North Korea to build nuclear power plants, I would have to disagree with that assessment.
 
I was watching the program last night on either Discovery Channel or Hitler Channel on "Why They Can't Kill Saddam" and one quote killed me. In describing Iraq, narrator said words to the effect of "he keeps all his citizens under close watch by secret police organizations dedicated to keeping massive amounts of information on who people are and where they go. It has led to an entire society that feels like it has to walk on eggshells lest one misstep lead to government attention."

Gee, sounds just like the same effect TIA would have here in USA!
 
Hkmp5sd, I think that turning us into a police state is more damaging to our freedom than arming our enemies. A strong America can handle its external enemies. A police state America cannot. But it can handle its INternal enemies just fine. That will be you and me.


BTW, just to avoid misunderstanding, I think Bill & Hillary, and most of their staff, should be charged with, tried for, and convicted of treason and hanged.
 
I don't think anyone said that the TIA wouldn't be a useful tool to locating terrorists and identifying their tell-tale activities. Of course it would.

It violates the natural rights of every human being so regardless of how useful it is I don't want it.

Remember, if the 2nd Amendment had been enforced, some passengers on flight 77 would have been armed and would have stopped the scum.
 
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