A few newbie questions

[nobody_special]

I'm going to take the plunge and start reloading .308 (for an M1A) and perhaps 9mm and 7.62x54R at some point in the future. Though milsurp 7.62x54R is cheap, so it's not really necessary unless I want a special load (low recoil, for example). I've been scouring this forum for information, but still have some questions...

For a press, I'm looking at either the Hornady L&L AP, or the Lee turret deal at Kempf. Right now I'm favoring the Hornady, since I read that the Lee double disk charger doesn't have enough capacity to load a full charge of IMR4895 in a 308 case. Can anyone comment on this? The L&L AP looks awfully nice, but it's pricey.

My shopping list so far includes:

CCI #34 military primers
IMR 4895 powder
Bullets (or get 1000 free with the Hornady press)
Lee 9mm deluxe 4-die set
Lee 308 Win Collet neck size die set (Or deluxe rifle set???)
Lee 308 Win Factory Crimp Die
Lee Universal decapping die
RBCS X-die, 308 Win
Speer reloading manual
Kinetic bullet puller
Case lubricant & tumbling media
Chamfer/deburring tool

I already have a tumbler, scale, calipers, and micrometers.

I know I will need a case trimmer for .308, but I don't know what to get. Any recommendations? Ideally, it would be inexpensive, easy to use (and difficult to mis-use!), fast, and durable. I have a power drill and dremel (and, for that matter, a lathe) which I could use to power a trimmer. I saw the Possum Hollow recommended, but (1) I'm having trouble actually finding one for sale online, and (2) it appears they won't work for 7.62x54R.

Is there anything I'm forgetting? Will I need shell holders or floor plates, or will they be supplied with the presses?

I have hundreds of once-fired casings of 70's OFV .308 - which seems to be good stuff, despite all the criticism of Indian ammo. These were all fired in my M1A. Is it absolutely necessary to do a full-length resize for these, even if the cartridges will be always be fired in the same rifle?

Finally, can anyone point me toward information on making reduced-recoil loads for either .308 or 7.62x54R?

Thanks...

 

[nobody_special]

Anyone?

 

[donttellthewife]

Other things you could use
Saftey glasses
Case gage
Tool for removing primer crimps ( swage, ream, chamfer )
Make your own case lube http ://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm
Media, use pet store walnut bird cage liner with Nu Finish car polish
Collet bullet puller instead of kinetic for 308
308 reloading pampflet ( has many different companies data, about $8.00 )
Use a deluxe 3 die set and you won't need a universal decap die
Do a full-length resize for semi auto
IMR 4895 powder may or may not meter well in whatever you decide to buy ( long extruder powder ) consider a ball powder
CCI #34 military primers are considered magnums, load accordingly


Above all don't do this

 

[Shoney]

Anyone?

Hey!!!!!!!! Patience, it is a holiday.

BEWARE THE DISEASE!
First, so you know where I am coming from, I have been reloading since 1960, and currently load metallics on an old single stage Pacific press, a Hornady LNL Auto, and a Dillon 550.

The Hornady LNL Auto is an excellent machine, and I recommend it. If you select it, I advise you use only one die at a time to begin with to learn each step of the process, before going progressive. Having several operations to contend with at the same time is not an ideal situation for a novice.

donttellthewife gave some worthwhile advice.

I have used almost every case lube imaginable over the years, and the best by far is Imperial Sizing Die Wax.

I have used a Forster case trimmer with great satisfaction for over 40 years. However, if you are doing large quantities and time is important, get the Giruad,
http://www.giraudtool.com/prod02.htm

One last item would be a stuck case remover (anyone who reloads, will stick a few cases), or if you have lots of tools,
1/2" Socket (1/4" drive)
1/4" x 1" Machine bolt
1/4" Tap
13/64" drill bit (came with the tap)
1/4" x 1 1/2" Washer (to keep from gouging the top of the socket)

For light loads, do some searches for Blue Dot and Unique.

 

[Grumulkin]

First of all, if you're loading for an M1A, you may need to full length size your cases; in fact you probably will have to. I like Lee Collet dies for everything that can be neck sized and I don't think the M1A is a good candidate for neck sizing.

Lee factory crimp dies are great for cartridges that need crimping. I've never crimped 308 Win. cartridges even when intending to shoot them in a semi-auto.

I had RCBS X-Dies and got rid of them. For them to work right, all of the cases need to be trimmed to the same length. I don't trim my cases each time but just when they're out of spec on my case length gauge so they didn't fit my style of reloading.

My newer press, after years using an RCBS Rockchucker, is a Redding T-7 turret press. It's great having 7 stations and I keep most of them filled with one die or another most of the time.

 

[nobody_special]

IMR 4895 powder may or may not meter well in whatever you decide to buy ( long extruder powder ) consider a ball powder

Hmm. IMR 4895 was recommended to me because it fills most of the case, making improper charges rather obvious. Are there similar alternatives (still suitable for an M1A) in ball powder form?

Case gage

Is that necessary for 9mm as well? As I understand it, non-bottlenecked pistol cases generally don't need trimming, so I'd guess a case gauge may not be necessary; is that right?

Shoney, for removing stuck cases... I have all those tools, but I'm not sure what you have in mind. I'd have thought that you drill out the bottom of the case, tap the hole, then insert the bolt and use the ratchet to tighten it and force the case out when the end of the bolt pushes against the die... but you specify a 1" long bolt, and the case is 2" long. What's your procedure?

Thanks!

 

[Shoney]

Length of the case is pretty much irrelevant. The distance to the primer pocket in all stuck cases is univerally constant to the extractor, and it is only important distance. You only need to pull it about 1/8 to 1/4 inch to remove the case. The voice of experience, many times over, speaking here.:banghead:

Most of the powder measures (except for the more expensive ones) will not give good consistent measures of stick powders like IMR4895. For an M1A at 100 yards, if you can be within plus/minus 1 grain, you will be ok. Farther distances will require either a Harrell PM or measuring each charge.

I have always used the barrel of my 9mm's (and all other semi-autos) as the case gauge, I've never needed a regular case guage in 46 years.

 

[nobody_special]

Okay, now I have more questions...

1. Does the Hornady LNL AP come with a shell plate? I can't find anything online, except the manual (which has a "shell plate" on the parts list, but it doesn't say which one... and the given part number is "39226_").

2. Would I still need a .308 case gauge (looking at the Forster case length & headspace gauge) if I use a Possum Hollow trimmer (trims based on the shoulder/headspace length), and calipers to measure overall length?

3. Here's a really weird question: the Lee Pacesetter die set for 7.62x54R does full-length resizing. That's probably undesirable for a bolt gun... would a neck size die set from another cartridge with .311" bullets work (e.g. .303, or possibly 7.62x39)? I'd assume not, but thought I'd ask...

Most of the powder measures (except for the more expensive ones) will not give good consistent measures of stick powders like IMR4895.

This poses a dilemma for me. If the LNL powder measure will not precisely measure the powder, I need to either find a more appropriate powder, or get a Lee turret press instead. What's the point in an expensive progressive press if you have to measure each charge by hand? IMR4895 (and 4064) seem to be the commonly used powders for the M1A... though I see there's a new IMR4007SSC which is supposed to solve exactly this problem... but of course it's new, and while the indicated burn rate should be good for an M1A,

Maybe I'll get some IMR4895 for now and wait to hear from other people's experience with IMR4007SSC...

 

[donttellthewife]

I load with a dillon 650 for 308s. The powder measure and connected parts needed to be polished and lubed ( dry graphite lube ) before it would throw 4895 powder right on the money.

I also have a powder check that's between the powder drop and the bullet seating position. So far every time it has alarmed it was because the powder had not settled in the case. It will let me know if things are grossly incorrect, it keeps me from having a major bad day at the range.

Is your goal to produce benchrest rounds or exceed factory rounds

My goal is to have respectable groups out to 100 yards (open sites), have loads that are easy on the brass and gun, make my ammo money go farther, and not spend any more time loading than nessesary. Not that I don't enjoy reloading I would just rather be shooting.

As it is I'll have to scope everything I own sooner than later as the eyes just aren't what they once were

these are rifles I load for in boxer and berdan primed cases
m1 garand
FN FAL
ar 15
k31 swiss
k98 (my sons mitchell mauser, he doesn't want to use surplus corrisive ammo)
1919a4 ( ammo hog )
7mm for friends
325wsm for friends
soon to be loading for these as the price of ammo climbs higher and higher and surplus dries up
mosin nagant
ak 47
sks


These are what I use the most for loading after I work up an acceptable load

 

[Hawk]

The bullet promotion with the Hornady LnL-AP includes their #3031 150 grain SP.

If you were going to be using the 3031 or similar anyway, a thousand of 'em free (apart from freight at 12..95) might be factored into your calculations.

 

[Shoney]

donttellthewife: I have never been able to get that kind of accuracy out of my graphited and polished Dillon powder measure with anything, even ball powder,???????????????? Are you quite sure?????????????????? My LNL powder measure has always been more accurate, especially with stick powder.

nobody_special
1. My LNL Auto came with a shell plate of my choice, which I designated upon ordering. All shell plates begin with #3926XX, and the 9mmLuger is #392608. Call Hornady service desk 1-800-338-3220, or the company yo plan to buy from.

2. In most circumstances, semi-autos require full length resizing, so IMHO no case gauge is necessary. I have heard good things about the Possum Hollow trimmer.

3. Not sure.

Pay little attention to people who have Dillon only, I'm sure you have already read the threads and seen the prejudiced info.

 

[Hawk]

I'm not having any issues with my powder drop but so far have only fed it stuff that meters well - I'd be curious what this "polish and graphite" hoodoo entails.

As to the OP, I'd be interested if this would be of any help?
http://www.quick-measure.com/index.htm

I don't know much about it but it presumably was concocted specifically to deal with 4831. If it was (a lot) cheaper, I'd have to get it just because it's kinda pretty. So, who's got one of these things that can comment on it?

 

[snuffy]

IMR 4895 powder may or may not meter well in whatever you decide to buy ( long extruded powder ) consider a ball powder

Huh? Are you possibly thinking of 4198? The 4895 I have is a fine, short grained extruded powder. It flows through my Hornady measure with very good consistency. I would not hesitate to use it while loading .308 with my Dillon, with it's Hornady case activated powder die.

Then again, the surplus WC-844, (very close to H-335), would do even better.

This poses a dilemma for me. If the LNL powder measure will not precisely measure the powder, I need to either find a more appropriate powder, or get a Lee turret press instead. What's the point in an expensive progressive press if you have to measure each charge by hand?

Answer is; you don't have to worry about EXACTLY the same powder charge each time. Even the bench rest crowd don't trickle charges. They use VOLUME measures to charge their cases. I did a test with the Hornady measure on my dillon, using varget powder, 69 gr. nosler match bullets, r-p cases, rem 9.5, @ 25.0 grains,(.223 for my bushy AR). The Hornady measure would do +- .02, sometimes a little closer to +- .01.
I then took the measure off and trickled the varget EXACTLY to 25.0 gr. Targeting while chronographing showed no difference in group size OR velocity. So in my case, I was worried about nothing!

 

[nobody_special]

That really clarifies things for me. I'll stick to IMR4895.

I'm not trying to make benchrest rounds right now, especially since I have a service rifle, not match. I just want a supply of less-expensive but good quality ammo -- I won't call it "cheap," but it'll sure beat $0.50+/round for surplus. I will be shooting well beyond 100 yards.

In the future, I may want to make some particularly accurate loads for my M39, which is why I asked about neck-sizing dies for .311" rounds. All my 7.62x54R brass is berdan primed anyway, and since the surplus is cheap, I'm not too concerned with it at the moment.

Thanks everyone!

 

[donttellthewife]

Maybe some of my definitions need clarification

snuffy,
4895 is the powder that gave me the most problems. I was told by Dillon that their equipment won't meter it well and I should go to a ball powder. In hindsight the term "long" should not have been used, it's just the longest extruded powder I have ever used, sorry for the confusion.

Shoney,
My term "right on the money"
I went out to double check how accurate it drops powder before posting this,
it is set at 41.3 grains, 308 plinking rounds for a 1919a4, the most inaccurate rifle I own
I checked 10 drops in a row and just added each drop to a digital scale

41.2
82.6---41.4
123.9--41.3
165.3--41.4
206.6--41.3
274.8--41.2
289.1--41.3
330.2--41.1
371.5--41.3
412.8--41.3

That meets my definition of right on, especailly considering how bad it was before I did the "hoodoo polish and grafite" I guess that may not meet other peoples definition of "right on", I'll be more careful in the future,
I wouldn't want anyone to question my honesty???????????????

I also load on a RCBS, Lee, Mec, and Ponsness Warren equipment and in the market for some Hornady equipment. I like diversity in the reloading room and try to pay attention to everyones opinon, its The High Road way to go.

nobody_special,

Sorry for taking up so much space on your thread.
You'll get all you're questions answered here, these guys are great no matter what equipment you use.
I think RCBS maks a neck sizer for the 7.62x54r

Best of Luck

 

[Hawk]

But, but... one of us still wants to know how to do the "polish and graphite" hoodoo.

C'mon, spill. I couldn't find it with the search function.

 

[nobody_special]

Sorry for taking up so much space on your thread.

Hey, don't be sorry -- I really appreciate everyone's input here.

Thanks.

 

[Shoney]

Hawk:
First, I will presume you have learned the secret handshake, and have served your time as keeper of the chamber pot, and are current in your dues of our "polish and graphite" hoodoo shadow society.

Disassemble the measure's slide. With emery cloth polish all moving surfaces that interact. Reassemble and powder moving parts copiously with graphite.

 

[Hawk]

Thanks! I'll keep the ciphers strictly within the society.

 

[nobody_special]

My LNL Auto came with a shell plate of my choice, which I designated upon ordering. All shell plates begin with #3926XX, and the 9mmLuger is #392608. Call Hornady service desk 1-800-338-3220, or the company yo plan to buy from.

Just an FYI, and a notice to anyone who might use this thread for information: I contacted Wideners and MidSouth Shooters. Both informed me that the Hornady LNL AP does not come with a shell plate.