TallPine
Member
Well, pardon me if I don't cheer and clap 
A gun law that actually makes sense
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jakemccoy
Member
ochmude said:
There's an example of why law making is difficult to do correctly. It's difficult to focus on anything other than the here and now. Please try...
Lets not forget the many recent massacres on school campuses. Regarding schools, many gun owners around the country are consciously working on being able to carry on schools. Some students have decided to carry anyway to protect their lives, knowing that they are technically breaking the law. Maybe you'll have a daughter that you instruct to carry one day to protect her from getting raped. I surely hope she would have the "intent to use" it if need be. Also, I surely hope she displays the gun "in a threatening manner" if need be. Don't forget about that female student body president out in North Carolina who was abducted and killed in March 2008...
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/03/07/unc.student.killed/index.html
In the wrong hands, this program would be dangerous. The muzzle will point in the wrong direction at some point. That is, if it already hasn't.
This program won't work as a deterrent on at least the school zone issue. In your mind, apply the program to Virginia Tech, Columbine and other REAL LIFE school shootings. It's a joke. Criminals that do carry out massacres on school property end up offing themselves in the end. So, the program will serve to carry out harsh penalties on people who actually need to carry on a school campus. At the very least, the program will discourage otherwise law-abiding students from carrying on school property to protect their lives.
Further, the program with respect to schools sends out a strong message that we want our schools to remain gun free zones. Here's what I think about gun free zones...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0vyxgJLJVA
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CypherNinja
Member
I think the program is a good one. Laws shouldn't be enforced in a haphazard fashion. They should be enforced whenever they apply in a just fashion. If it's a bad law, then change it or get rid of it. They shouldn't be ignored or diminished. Doing so strikes me as negligent and unjust in a way I can't quite explain.
Murder is murder, felon in possession is felon in possession. It's there, and should be enforced. Many may disagree with the latter, including myself, but that should be addressed publicly with legislators.
Consistently ignoring or tossing charges diminishes the entire justice system. What is the point of so many laws if most of them are a joke? If most of them are jokes, then the remainder are probably cheapened as well. If most of the sentences are jokes, then even the most serious crimes are diluted. I think this whole belittlement of the justice system is a principle cause of our crime problems today.
There should be relatively few crimes, and they should NOT be jokes.
(I had to rewrite this post 3 times and it still doesn't quite convey what I want it to. My debate-fu is weak today.)
Murder is murder, felon in possession is felon in possession. It's there, and should be enforced. Many may disagree with the latter, including myself, but that should be addressed publicly with legislators.
Consistently ignoring or tossing charges diminishes the entire justice system. What is the point of so many laws if most of them are a joke? If most of them are jokes, then the remainder are probably cheapened as well. If most of the sentences are jokes, then even the most serious crimes are diluted. I think this whole belittlement of the justice system is a principle cause of our crime problems today.
There should be relatively few crimes, and they should NOT be jokes.
(I had to rewrite this post 3 times and it still doesn't quite convey what I want it to. My debate-fu is weak today.)
Happiness Is A Warm Gun
Member
I believe campus carry will be passed in VA in 2009. Likely at that point the Exile law will need to be changed to incorporate an exclusion for lawful defensive use.
If a law is wrong we need to change it. Advocating breaking a law because it is wrong weakens the entire judicial system. Ask 100 random people which laws should be ignored. You will get dozens of responses ranging speed limits to guns to drugs to prostitution to gambling.
A society where everyone ignores the laws they feel are wrong is no society it is anarchy.
If we can't agree on even that point then we just need to agree to disagree.
TallPine
Member
No, it wouldn't be anarchy because in an anarchy there would be no laws to ignore
jakemccoy
Member
Happiness said:
Who's advocating breaking a law?
If you can't imagine a situation where the need to carry surpasses the obligation to stay within the law, then you're out of touch.
It's hard to have a conversation about real topics with people who aren't willing to be real.
JohnBT
Member
Here's a link to a 2003 evaluation of the Virginia program covering 2 or 3 years and 2 excerpts. Note that 172 cases were transferred to federal court and please note the last three words of this quote... "were rarely charged"...
"The three remaining Exile offenses -- possession of a firearm and distribution of Schedule I or II drugs, possession of a firearm and distribution of more than one pound of marijuana, and possession of a firearm while on school property -- were rarely charged. "
www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=202301
Title: Evaluation of the Virginia Exile Program, Final Report
Publication Date: 07/2003
"On July 1, 1999, three amendments to Virginia State law began to impose mandatory minimum sentences and increase penalties for certain firearm offenses. The Exile Program was implemented in January 2000 to provide grant funds to support the prosecution of these offenses."
"For the 10 sites that participated in the evaluation, the focus was on 646 cases in which Exile charges were brought against a defendant. Of the six Exile offenses, three of them constituted 96 percent of the charges brought. These three offenses were the possession of a firearm and possession of Schedule I or II drugs, possession of a firearm by a nonviolent felon, and possession of a firearm by a violent felon. The three remaining Exile offenses -- possession of a firearm and distribution of Schedule I or II drugs, possession of a firearm and distribution of more than one pound of marijuana, and possession of a firearm while on school property -- were rarely charged. The defendants were predominantly African-American males between the ages of 18 and 44. Of the 646 cases, 172 were ultimately transferred to the Federal court system for prosecution."
"The three remaining Exile offenses -- possession of a firearm and distribution of Schedule I or II drugs, possession of a firearm and distribution of more than one pound of marijuana, and possession of a firearm while on school property -- were rarely charged. "
www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/Abstract.aspx?id=202301
Title: Evaluation of the Virginia Exile Program, Final Report
Publication Date: 07/2003
"On July 1, 1999, three amendments to Virginia State law began to impose mandatory minimum sentences and increase penalties for certain firearm offenses. The Exile Program was implemented in January 2000 to provide grant funds to support the prosecution of these offenses."
"For the 10 sites that participated in the evaluation, the focus was on 646 cases in which Exile charges were brought against a defendant. Of the six Exile offenses, three of them constituted 96 percent of the charges brought. These three offenses were the possession of a firearm and possession of Schedule I or II drugs, possession of a firearm by a nonviolent felon, and possession of a firearm by a violent felon. The three remaining Exile offenses -- possession of a firearm and distribution of Schedule I or II drugs, possession of a firearm and distribution of more than one pound of marijuana, and possession of a firearm while on school property -- were rarely charged. The defendants were predominantly African-American males between the ages of 18 and 44. Of the 646 cases, 172 were ultimately transferred to the Federal court system for prosecution."
Just plain false. Government has specifically by the constitution been given the power to take away at least some rights in certain circumstances. Incarceration on its face is a massive denial of rights. You do the crime, you do the time, and you get whatever other baggage there is for doing the crime. No sympathy for violent criminals here. The fact is that virtually no violent criminals are ever really rehabilitated. The myth you are trying to present is just that - the myth of rehabilitation.
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Happiness Is A Warm Gun
Member
If you weren't then I apologize.
There are 3 options:
a) Campus carry becomes legal in VA before my daughter turns 18. I personally think this will happen soon in VA.
b) It is a large enough concern that my daughter goes to a state where campus carry is legal.
c) It is illegal and despite my personal feelings on the law I don't advocate my daughter to break the law.
If Campus Carry becomes legal in VA I have no doubt the wording of the "intent to do harm in school" will be clarified to provide an exception for lawful use (i.e defense of self or others).
We do have the VCDL fighting for gun rights in VA. You might want to check them out. They are likely one of the best organized grass roots organizations in the country. Their model has been emulated by a lot of other states.
http://www.vcdl.org
Once VA adopted "no local pre-emption" (all gun laws must be passed ONLY at state level). They worked to remove illegal gun laws from cities and counties. They also worked to educate sheriffs, city councils, and LEO on changes to carry laws. They also have a newsletter and email alerts. If EXILE was the horrible anti-gun law you make it out to be I am sure the VCDL would be all over it.
We may never agree on this issue but the reality is that citizens (both pro and anti gun) want lower crime. Crime was out of control in Richmond. Many communities in that situation (including CA) choose to adopt harsh "gun control laws" in the form of bans, registrations, limits, licensing, magazine caps,that we both know don't work.
Richmond can't adopt local gun control so it is the entire state or nothing. Since gun control is political suicide in VA (large % of even Democrats are pro-gun) they decided to enforce existing criminal laws.
They dropped murder rate 40% with NO NEW LAWS, no bans, no restrictions on lawful gun owners. We have no license in VA, no registration, no restrictions on EBR or high cap magazines, no waiting period on guns. Open carry is 100% legal across the state. Conceal carry is shall issue. Brady campaign is giving VA a failing grade of 17%.
Low crime and no restrictions on gun rights. Sounds like a winner to me.
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