A lesson in gun finishes

[C5rider]

I've learned a lot about shooting, reloading and even a little backyard gunsmithing since getting back into guns lately. Now, I've started another chapter in my ever-increasing knowledge. i acquired this Llama MiniMax 45that looked like no one ever loved it. Looks like it's been shot/carried a lot, but it still shoots surprisingly well, it just looks bad. Accuracy is as good as I am so no worries there and it has gone bang EVERY time I've asked it to.

I don't want this to turn into a "Why a Llama?" thread. I've read all them already. This gun works fine for me. I'm torn as to whether or not I should re-finish the gun. I'd like to try my hand at some type of re-finishing (rather than send it off for someone else to do it) but, I'm also aware of the gun's value (or lack of) so putting a LOT of money into it isn't really an option. Although, if it keeps shooting like this, it MAY earn one!

I've read of the Duracoate and Ceracoat finishes and this one has a matte black finish, which I assume is from Llama. It just has several areas where it's worn through and you can see the metal. I was thinking of some sort of custom finish work, utilizing the matte black and possibly a brushed metal finish on the sides of the slide. I'm just curious if there is a way to re-finish it in the original dull black finish yet also add some custom touches in the process. I'm looking at the learning process, not only having a custom gun when it's all done. I do have a blasting cabinet and a fair amount of tools/equipment.

I know, (This Thread is WORTHLESS without Pics!) and I will be adding some once I get a few pics of the gun. Until then, I'd like to invite you all to include some photos of custom finished guns that might fit the bill for what I might want to consider. Also, please tell me what you used and how you did it, if there's a certain technique that you found works best.

thanks for any and all information and I'll be sure to come back with some images of my latest lesson in firearms.

 

[GWARGHOUL]

Is it painted, or is it blued?

 

[C5rider]

Had a guy look at it today and he said that it was blued. I still feel that there was a different finish put on it from the factory. It just seems thicker than a bluing. Here are a couple of pics and you can see how it is worn through. I'm going to keep putting some shots through it and see how it responds. then I'll decide whether it'll be a truck gun, or a trick gun. Anyone know what kind of finishes were available on these guns when they were new?

Here's how she looks today.

 

[rcmodel]

Looks like sandblasted & Parkerizing too me.

The rough texture & build-up are indicative of that.

rc

 

[C5rider]

Very possible RCmodel. I've been checking around the 'net and trying to get a good hold on what each of these finishes look like in person. Tough to do virtually.

I like the finish and if it were in nicer shape, I'd leave it the way it is. But, looking at this as a true SOI (Significant Opportunity for Improvement), I'm looking into various options as well. CeraKote, re-Parkerizing, Duracoat and even bluing (cold, rolled, rust, matte, brushed, gloss and otherwise). Some I could do at home while others might be more than I'd bargain for at home.

It's a tough call for two reasons. If I go the blued route, it'd double the cost of the gun. If I do it at home, I'm limited somewhat. I can always tear the gun down a few times and use it for "instructional purposes" for a somewhat 1911 teardown and re-assembly. Then, once I've figured out how to do that, I can then put a finish on it. Whether sprayed, dipped or brushed will be determined.

I was thinking that a black gun with the sides of the slide in a brushed textrue would look cool. But, how would I keep the slide from rusting? Is there a clear that would be durable enough? Would I parkerize it and then sand it off?

 

[rcmodel]

If I wanted a two-tone gun?
I would use Dura-Coat type shake & Bake.

Your gun is carbon steel, and if you polish the sides of the slide bare of any finish, it will have no rust protection at all.

Clear coat is not a very good option as it will soon be coming off too. Just ask S&W!
I'm pretty sure they use far better clear coat then you can do at home.

This from Wackypeedia:

A wide range of finishes were available including matte blue, satin chrome, two-tone and stainless steel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Llama_Mini_Max_Sub-Compact_45_II.JPG
Sounds like sandblasted bluing or Park to me.

rc

 

[jl1288]

C5 if it is anything like mine, it is wearing a parkerized finish. Mine has never been carried but it has had several thousand rounds thru it. The only issue I've ever had with it was the mag catch had to be replaced after 2000 or so rounds. It is a solid gun, all steel and heavy. I think I've had mine somewhere around 13 or 14 years. Good luck and enjoy your gun.

 

[C5rider]

That's what my finish is supposed to look like.

Glad to hear that you've had a good experience with your gun. I'm looking forward to the same with mine. Thanks for answering that question as to what this thing left the factory with. Now, do I keep it utilitarian, make it pretty or try my hand at some custom touches?

 

[chhodge69]

What about buying a couple junk slides to practice on?

 

[C5rider]

If I could find some, that might be an option. Although, the biggest unknown for me right now is tearing this one down and getting it back together properly. A good deep cleaning and maybe some touch up inside might be in order while doing the re-paint.

 

[jl1288]

The one thing about Llamas , there aren't alot of after market goodies for adding that custom touch. Rust bluing isn't hard, it's all about the prep, and taking your time. It does take time. Visit midway usa Larry Potterfield has some tutorials on cold bluing, and rust bluing. I took the plunge and bought a tank from midway, and the pre-mix rust bluing solution from Brownells and rust blued a high standard shotgun. One more time, it's all about the prep, thoroughly de-grease the parts to be blued and then handle with nitrile gloves. Grab a drink and then sit back and watch rust form, also depending on where you live you might want to wait till summer and higher humidity roll around. I learned that one first hand after a cold front blew in and blew out all the humidity here the rusting process slowed waaaaaayyy down. Was kinda funny though when the wife walked in the bathroom and found gun parts hanging in there. Do some research and then do some more, that way you can make an informed choice.

 

[C5rider]

Did some trial and error today. I bought a magazine today for $10. If it works well, that's fine. But that's not why I bought it. It was a "range magazine" and was painted orange/red. Ugly!

I got it cheap and figured that I'd blast it and try my hand a bluing it. I polished the back of the magazine and the bottom to try the difference and see how it would work. I'm thinking that I might blast the entire gun and then buff out the sides of the slides REALLY well and then blue it. I like the color and I think if the sides of the slide were really polished and blued and I left the hammer and slide stop black, that might look pretty nice.

It would be different and, I'd try my hand at something new.

Here's some pics of baby's first bluing job! The old magazine is the scratched up one!

 

[jl1288]

Nice job, is that a cold blue?

 

[C5rider]

It's called "Perma-Blue" from Birchwood Casey. I'm liking it.

Likin' it enough that I'm thinking about bluing the entire gun with it.

 

[rcmodel]

I'm liking it.

Come back in a couple of months and you won't be.

Cold blue just fads over time & use, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Brownell's Oxpho-Blu is about as durable a cold blue as there is.
And even it won't hold up nearly as well as hot blue.

rc

 

[C5rider]

Well, I'll just take some time and see how it lasts. The gun shoots good and I don't have to have it all pretty to have fun with it. I'll toss the magazine around a little and see how it holds up. Thanks for the heads up though.

 

[Strykervet]

It's called "Perma-Blue" from Birchwood Casey. I'm liking it.

Likin' it enough that I'm thinking about bluing the entire gun with it.

That's a cold blue. When I was a kid, my dad made a muzzle loader from a kit (actually he made a couple) but the first one he did with that Birchwood Casey stock and blue kit. It had everything in it. Anyway, the blue job DID look nice, it wasn't nearly as dark and soft as a hot blue, but it didn't look bad.

Until humidity went up. We lived in AL. Now all the other blued weapons, a Mossberg, a 10/22, an 870, a Winchester 70 and a 30-30 lever, along with a very old Smith hammerless, they had no problems, no rust. But that cold blued weapon, he did a great job on it, but the finish didn't hold up long against rust. I guess it is just the difference between hot and cold blue. So from then on, cold bluing as I was taught was just for touch ups. I have a cold blue pen that is useful, but I'd never blue a weapon I cared about with it. If I didn't care, well...

I've used Duracoat, I Duracoated a G17 and a Mossberg 500. I wanted to try it out on that old 2nd gen. G17 and my M500 which came with a kind of cheap park job (scratched real easy). That cheap park job was great for an underfinish for the Duracoat though, just great. That shotgun is just plain flat black now and doesn't scratch. Doesn't rust either because it no longer scratches. The G17, I just roughed it up with some steel wool, it really looked kind of bad after that all crosshatched and such with scratches, but then a few of layers of black Duracoat later (gotta use real thin layers out of an airbrush for best results) it looked almost like a new pistol, only the black was duller and without that prismatic reflection new Glocks have.

Now the Glock didn't NEED the finish like the Mossberg did, but I cared less about messing it up than any other. It also would show me how well it wears since I let my wife carry it and I use it at the range. So far so good. I plan on using it on a couple of rifles, and a buddy has a KAC rail that has been to hell and back and I'm gonna refinish that for him. It's good stuff, but you gotta prep good. It needs some kind of tooth, preferably a park job (which is easy, easier than bluing) or steel wool. Acetone is what I used to clean everything, prep work, the airbrush, everything. It'll dissolve Duracoat pretty well as long as it hasn't sat for too long, and it degreases well and evaporates fast.

Just my experience in refinishing, which is limited, but there you go.

 

[C5rider]

Making perfect sense. I'll be checking the magazine's finish for a while. No rush.

I finally tore down the gun to give it a throrough cleaning. Pulled all the guts out of it. The trigger was kind of heavy so I did a little research. Armed with the knowledge that this is not a high-end gun, I decided to jump in (with the help of YouTube). I know, I can hear the sighs from all the 1911 guys who have made a good living by fixing other people's improvements.

Since the gun had apparently been used a fair amount, I decided not to get into changing anything on the sear, hammer or disconnector. I did note though that the sear sits pretty deep into the hammer notches. But, since I wasn't going to change anything, I didn't take any measurements. Maybe someday because, by looking at the sear, the edge isn't uniform. That'll be another day.

What I did do, was to soften the three-leaf spring on the center and left leaves and bend the right leaf a little more for the grip safety as it rattled more than I cared for. I think it helped soften the trigger very nicely and, if it continues to shoot well, it'll just be another reason to give this ol' girl a nicer finish. All the safety mechanisms still work properly, the hammer doesn't follow the slide when it returns and, the trigger feels much better. I can't wait to try it out at the range but when I do, I'll start with only two in the mag, just to be sure. So far, the knowledge has been well worth the investment. I've spent way more and received much less of an education in "classrooms". Now, to see if that lesson was in what to do or, what NOT to do! Range session will surely let us know. I'll be sure to post the results. Stay tuned!

 

[Strykervet]

It's called "Perma-Blue" from Birchwood Casey. I'm liking it.

Likin' it enough that I'm thinking about bluing the entire gun with it.

I'd only use cold blue to touch up. Never to do a whole firearm. I say this from experience, not from hearsay. It just doesn't hold up, and no way it comes close to comparing in beauty to a decent blue job. It is only marginally better than white metal regarding rust.

If it is indeed parkerized, then it may be hard to go wrong with Cerakote or Duracoat. I understand the Cerakote is supposed to be tougher, but I guess you have to join a club or something in order to buy it and I don't play those games.

The Duracoat, it works pretty well. IF you prep and apply right. I did a G17, an old 2nd gen beater I have, I didn't care so much if I messed it up. But it turned out pretty nice, looks a lot like a new Glock, a new 2nd gen. I also did a Mossberg 500, it had a fairly flimsy park job from the factory.

To smooth out and even and tack up the finish during prep, what I did was take some fine steel wool to the finish. Lots of fine scratches in the park job. The Duracoat covered this up easily and adhered to the scratched up park job really well. It certainly doesn't scratch like it used to before the Duracoat, so it is better than a cheap park job.

For prep, I used acetone. Enough said there, just pay a lot of attention to detail and know that you should be spending a LOT of time prepping, and very little time actually spraying. When spraying, I used an airbrush and used VERY light coats. Here you want to practice a little before actually spraying. Too little and it will sputter leaving little spots. Too much and it will run. Just right should be barely enough to leave a thin and even coat. Do that over and over, a few times at least, and you'll be good.

All in all, the Duracoat was easy. The "black oxide" is what I used on the Glock and Mossberg, but I have some colors for a camo job on another rifle later.

Problem is, unless you plan on using this again later, the gear may not be worth it to you. For only one color, I suppose you could use the Preval sprayer and come out okay, but it is still kind of costly. I'd compute the costs of EVERYTHING first, including the tray you plan on cleaning parts in, the acetone you'll need, everything. You may find out like I did that if you only need one or two finish jobs, it will be cheaper and you'll get better results to send it off to a pro.

But if you plan on doing a few, and perhaps even getting a couple of beaten up milsurps and refinishing them yourself, then you'll have a hard time beating this stuff. Like I said, there is a better product out there, but last I heard they would only sell it to you if you took a class from them. A class. On spray painting.

Just know Duracoat needs a good tooth to grab on to, and not all surfaces are the best. Some need to be sandblasted first, but they say parkerized surfaces are the best. Polished stainless surfaces are the worst. Good luck!