A more informative way to display self defense ammunition performance specs?

[481]

Over the years, I've seen nothing new in the way that manufacturers list self defense ammunition performance data on their ammunition boxes and catalogs other than downrange velocity and kinetic energy at the corresponding ranges.

With ballistic testing becoming evermore commonplace, I think it would be nice if ammunition manufacturers adopted a more informative format such as providing the average expanded diameter, maximum penetration depth (in inches) and mass of the permanent wound cavity (in ounces) produced by their SD ammunition in calibrated ordnance gelatin at some standardized distance, for instance 21 feet (7 yards).

For example, the format for a premium SD .45 ACP 230 gr. JHP @ 850 fps could be as simple as:

0.675"/13.1"/2.32 oz. @ 7 yds.

Would anyone else find such specifications on SD ammo boxes helpful in deciding which SD ammunition suits their needs best?

 

[PabloJ]

Over the years, I've seen nothing new in the way that manufacturers list self defense ammunition performance data on their ammunition boxes and catalogs other than downrange velocity and kinetic energy at the corresponding ranges.

With ballistic testing becoming evermore commonplace, I think it would be nice if ammunition manufacturers adopted a more informative format such as providing the average expanded diameter, maximum penetration depth (in inches) and mass of the permanent wound cavity (in ounces) produced by their SD ammunition in calibrated ordnance gelatin at some standardized distance, for instance 21 feet (7 yards).

For example, the format for a premium SD .45 ACP 230 gr. JHP @ 850 fps could be as simple as:

0.675"/13.1"/2.32 oz. @ 7 yds.

Would anyone else find such specifications on SD ammo boxes helpful in deciding which SD ammunition suits their needs best?

No, that would only work in them blue states (CA, NY, MA, IL,.....) here in Heart of Dixie we prefer picturesque Zombie Max brand.

 

[beatledog7]

Regardless of how such data is presented, its accuracy and repeatability will be less than assured. Too many variables in play. See EPA fuel efficiency ratings for automobiles.

 

[481]

No, that would only work in them blue states (CA, NY, MA, IL,.....) here in Heart of Dixie we prefer picturesque Zombie Max brand.

Well, that answers that.

 

[jad0110]

While I agree with beatledog7, the information would still be more useful to me than ft-lbs of energy they currently display.

If the ammunition manufacturers developed and agreed to a regimented, standardized testing procedure (based on ISO principles) it might at least reduce the variability somewhat.

 

[481]

While I agree with beatledog7, the information would still be more useful to me than ft-lbs of energy they currently display.

If the ammunition manufacturers developed and agreed to a regimented, standardized testing procedure (based on ISO principles) it might at least reduce the variability somewhat.

That's what I am thinking and why I stated that it oughtta be done using calibrated gelatin at a standardized distance.

Using the format I suggested would allow the customer to then make an "apples to apples" comparison using average expanded diameter, penetration depth and wound cavity mass as a basis for selecting ammunition regardless of caliber and projectile type.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Basically they should show the FBI test protocol results... AND the gun that the ammo was tested in. Too many of them use barrel lengths that few people carry, don't test in shorter barrels, or use test barrels that don't correspond to real guns.

 

[Tcruse]

Ther are lots of other things to consider. Just read all of the 9 vs 40 vs 45 threads. Objects that you shoot thru, min speed required to expand, clothing that clogs hollow point ...
For ammo used by LE, there are some lists that attempt to measure one shot stops with various brands and sizes, but still lots of unknowns, like gun used and how good was shot placement. Does dept A use ammo A and have really good well trained officers giving Ammo A much better stats? Does dept b have ammo b with no training and low quality shooters?
One study showed JHP bullets better in every caliber, except 45. In 45 the FMJ bullets did as well as JHP, so what does that mean?
Another problem is that by the time that there is enough actual usage data the ammo is of an older design. So we endup with simple numbers that cn be reproduced.

 

[481]

Basically they should show the FBI test protocol results... AND the gun that the ammo was tested in. Too many of them use barrel lengths that few people carry, don't test in shorter barrels, or use test barrels that don't correspond to real guns.

With you on that.

It'd just have to be done in a way that would allow them to fit the data on the box- kinda like Federal does on their boxes. Maybe a standardized barrel length for each caliber might be in order, y'know- 3" for the .380, 4" for the 9mm, 5" for the .45Auto, etc.

 

[NG VI]

If a premium 230 grain .45 only expanded to .675" and only penetrated 13" while doing so, I'd find something else. 13" of penetration can be gotten from a 230 grain that expands to .90+", and less than .70" expansion can be gotten from bullets that can penetrate a whole lot more than 13".


But that's just the made-up example, I think it's a good idea. Probably never get done, but it does use the only objective and repeatable way to test bullets to give them some hard ratings.

Then you'll hear manufacturers whose bullets have smaller, but fuller expanded profiles requesting that the diameter number is an average of the expanded bullet, while manufacturers like Winchester and Federal, whose flagship bullets have outstanding recovered diameters, but don't appear to be all that special when you use an average diameter measurement.

 

[NG VI]

One study showed JHP bullets better in every caliber, except 45. In 45 the FMJ bullets did as well as JHP,

Don't happen to remember the name of that study, do you?

 

[rcmodel]

SD .45 ACP 230 gr. JHP @ 850 fps

Perhaps 90% of all ammo buyers don't know what that means.

Adding that other stuff would just confuse another 8.9% or so.

rc

 

[481]

Perhaps 90% of all ammo buyers don't know what that means.

Adding that other stuff would just confuse another 8.9% or so.

rc

Kind of hard to accept that as a premise. Go with it if it works for you. If you don't get it, hang around here for a while and you'll learn all sorts of stuff including that.

 

[rcmodel]

If you don't get it, hang around here

Shirley, you jest!

If you had answered as many questions about MV, ME, trajectory, etc, as I have in the last few years on this board, you might believe what I said had some ring of truth to it!

rc

 

[481]

Yes, I do, sir and don't call me Shirley!

ha ha ha ha ha

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I've always thought a graph-like graphic would be the best way to present terminal performance information. One scale would indicate velocity and the other scale would represent penetration depth. All the shooter would need to know is average bullet velocity when fired from his gun (or same barrel length as his gun). Then he could simply determine penetration depth based on velocity.

 

[2zulu1]

Don't happen to remember the name of that study, do you?

I'm not sure if this is the same report or not, but in the report I remember, a surgeon stated that 3 to 4 well placed hits from a 45 auto was typically fatal and it didn't matter if it was JHP or FMJ (ball) ammo.

 

[2zulu1]

Perhaps 90% of all ammo buyers don't know what that means.

Adding that other stuff would just confuse another 8.9% or so.

rc

I believe your question was answered the first sentence of the first post.

 

[NMGonzo]

bigger the betterer/

 

[481]

I've always thought a graph-like graphic would be the best way to present terminal performance information. One scale would indicate velocity and the other scale would represent penetration depth. All the shooter would need to know is average bullet velocity when fired from his gun (or same barrel length as his gun). Then he could simply determine penetration depth based on velocity.

Shawn,

Hey, I like that graphic. It puts a ton of info in a very small area and would fit well on the back of an ammunition box. Very much in line with what I'd envisioned.

 

[481]

I'm not sure if this is the same report or not, but in the report I remember, a surgeon stated that 3 to 4 well placed hits from a 45 auto was typically fatal and it didn't matter if it was JHP or FMJ (ball) ammo.

2z1,

I think that I saw that same report also. Just can't recall the title... frustrating.