A question about "Constructive Possession"...

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anhedonic

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O.k., I know that the ATF doesn't take kindly to owning/possessing all the components needed to create a functioning machine gun, SBR, SBS, etc. without a tax stamp...even if the components are not assembled into a functioning firearm.

Here is what got me thinking...I was in a gun store the other day and noted that they had short barreled uppers and rifle (stocked) lowers for sale and in inventory. This dealer is NOT a "class 3" or title 2 licensee, so what is the difference in the law between a retailer and an individual? Shops like this with similar inventory exist all over the country.

Seems to me both circumstances would be equivalent under the law-what am I missing?
 
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A short upper is perfectly legal as is... it's the lower that gets the tax stamp. That short upper could also be attached to an AR pistol lower without a stamp.
 
anhedonic said:
O.k., I know that the ATF doesn't take kindly to owning/possessing all the components needed to create a functioning machine gun, SBR, SBS, etc. without a tax stamp...even if the components are not assembled into a functioning firearm.

You must live a life without any tools at all.
 
You must live a life without any tools at all.
Have lots of tools-thanks for asking though...I'm guessing that winning personality has made you a lot of friends over the years, eh?

I'm looking for someone with an opinion on the legal distinction between the two-thus the posting here in "legal".
 
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I don't want to get into the detail here, but I will note that for illegal possession of an NFA firearm, an FFL dealer (01, no SOT) is no different than anyone else, and has to abide by the same rules.

Jim
 
I "THINK" the question was NOT on full auto. The "question" was on SBR SHORT barel Rifle. I.E. a AR with barrel under 16" total length..

It is something I have TRIED to understand. As a example. Say you have 3 ARs with 16 to 25" barrels. You also have a Upper thats a 10.5". It "seems" the ATF says you have "constructive Possession" of a SBR....


I have a "virgin" stripped lower receiver. (has NEVER had any parts/connected to anything) I considered making it a "pistol" with a @ 10" barrel and pistol buffer. I "THINK" I could later remove the buffer/upper and make it into a carbine/rifle but NEVER into a pistol again. Thing is once I remove anything. That "pistol" lower would be considered "constructive possession" of a SBR. Since most everything I have hear/read says a barrel under 16" for 5.56 is a waste I had considered a 9mm unit. But due to (what I understand of law) its too dang easy to get into trouble.
 
It is something I have TRIED to understand. As a example. Say you have 3 ARs with 16 to 25" barrels. You also have a Upper thats a 10.5". It "seems" the ATF says you have "constructive Possession" of a SBR....
:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Please see my previous post on this thread. You have no clue what about the meaning of constructive possession.

Why is it so many here choose to remain willfully ignorant of such things?
 
I was in a gun store the other day and noted that they had short barreled uppers and rifle (stocked) lowers for sale and in inventory. This dealer is NOT a "class 3" or title 2 licensee, so what is the difference in the law between a retailer and an individual? Shops like this with similar inventory exist all over the country.

Without getting caught up on the terminology, the question in the thread is still clear.
What you are asking is parts together result in illegal possession even when not assembled.

The answer is complicated.
The ATF has had the courts rule against them, but they have chosen to ignore precedent before and say a court ruling against them means something different than it did, and thier interpretation is still the only way. Since they enforce the rules, that ends up being what happens.
The Thompson case is one of the more blatant examples in numerous ways.


The general consensus from ATF opinions is that if you have parts that can be assembled illegaly, they are still not illegal possession of an NFA item if they can be assembled in legal configurations with firearms you currently have.
So if you have a short barreled AR upper, and a AR lower with a stock, it is only illegal possession of a SBR if you cannot use them on other firearms. So if you also have an AR pistol and a long barreled AR upper, then all components can be assembled into legal configurations.

Where it gets complicated is the ATF has chosen to declare that having extra parts can be illegal.
Say you have 3 AR rifles, 1 AR pistol, and 5 AR stocks, perhaps because you bought some aftermarket stocks for your AR rifles, but still have the stock ones. Many people have an extra stock for a firearm, or extra components in general especially for a highly modular firearm like the AR.
Yet the ATF can declare that since you have 5 stocks, and only 3 rifles, that you have 2 more stocks than needed and in combination with the AR pistol you own that means you are in illegal possession of a SBR.

Likewise you may have multiple pistol barrels. You could even have complete conversion parts for some firearms to use all different calibers on legal platforms, all legal. But if you happen to have extra barrels for say your AR pistol, and you also own an AR rifle, then the ATF can declare you have a SBR because one of those extra barrels could be attached to the AR rifle.
Many people who own AR type firearms do end up with multiple stocks, barrels, and other components. Which is normally not a problem. Happen to own an AR pistol too though? It suddenly is a problem.
There is numerous similar firearm combinations where a rifle and pistol platform share components.
AK pistols, maybe even the Ruger 10/22 and Charger pistol.
To name just some common examples.
The ATF may consider some extra parts okay, or they may not. So they suddenly have a lot of discretion to declare you in violation of the law, and they have done so in the same circumstances before (and they will likely be nice and polite right up until the filing of charges).

Further if you were to sell one of your firearms, but retain some of the extra components for it, you could suddenly be violating the law. Own an AR pistol and a single AR rifle and then sell the rifle? If you had an extra stock, or vertical fore grip for the rifle, but sold the rifle, you no longer have a legal reason to have those components. You are suddenly in illegal possession of a SBR. I have seen stocks and grips better for different situations, so there is certainly reasons to have many. Some are more sturdy, but another one may fold away, one may have a built in light...maybe you want all of them for different situations?
Perhaps you purchased an aftermarket one, but saved the stock one in case you don't like your new purchase?
Perhaps after selling your AR rifle you plan to buy a new one eventualy, so don't want to get rid of your parts to spend hundreds aquiring them all over again (if they are all even still sold)?
Illegal possession of a SBR.

It would actually become "constructive possession" of an illegal SBR if you had a friend or family member hang on to the extra parts so you would not be in violation until you did buy that new AR rifle. Because you are still technically in constructive possession, intending to exercise control over those parts even though you are having someone else store them.


Constructive possession is just a legal term for possession when you are not really in possession. It has nothing to do with constructing or building. What you have referred to as constructive possession in your question is merely considered illegal possession in legal terminology. Having a disassembled machinegun is still possession of a machinegun. Having a machinegun stored at your friends house is constructive possession of said machinegun.
 
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Well in your house, your car, etc, and you would likely constructively possess that object. If you intend to exercise dominion and control over the object, but are not physically controlling the object, then it's constructive possession. The example I like to give is your car keys in your hand, in your pocket, or clipped your belt is actual (physical) possession of your car keys. When you set your keys down on the counter in your kitchen, on hook by the garage door, in a drawer of your nightstand, etc, and move about your house, you know longer have actual (physical) possession, but you do still exercise (and intend to exercise) dominion and control over those keys, and therefore constructively possess the keys.
 
My question is: Could you use constructive possession as a defence to 922r problems if you owned the proper U.S. Parts but hadn't installed them on your firearm yet?
 
Mezlin said:
My question is: Could you use constructive possession as a defence to 922r problems if you owned the proper U.S. Parts but hadn't installed them on your firearm yet?
"Possession" of a non-922r-compliant weapon is not a crime.
 
In my state, FL, there are specific laws against constructive posession without the proper tax stamps, if there is any reason to believe that the parts are owned only to create a restricted firearm.

For example....if you own an AR, standard, fixed stock, etc.....but you also own a 10" barrel for it.....DO NOT SELL THE BARREL WITH THE RIFLE, EVEN IF NOT INSTALLED. The state considers that an attempt to bypass the sale of a restricted arm and will go ape on you.

There was a thread here recently over a guy that sold a pistol with a buttstock, even though the pistol did not have the equipment to handle the stock, he still got arrested and charged.

So moral of the story...know your federal, state AND local laws regarding this. Best bet to have "pistol" and "rifle" parts is to own both an AR pistol and an AR rifle if you are in posession of mixed AR parts. That gives you reason to own them.
 
this is what i have found out about our legal system

even tho laws are in place,everybody is treated different,it all comes down to what mood the people enforcing laws are in.........it sucks but it seems to apply everywhere.
 
Could you use constructive possession as a defence to 922r problems if you owned the proper U.S. Parts but hadn't installed them on your firearm yet?

Constructive possession is not that you have the ability to construct something. Constructive possession is that you can be treated as if you possess something, even if you don't actually possess it. The key is that you have dominion and control.

For example: You drive a car in which drugs are found. The police did not actually find drugs on you. You may not have even been in the car. However, since you are in possession of the car, you constructively possess the drugs.

For an SBR, this means that you have the parts to make an SBR, even though you don't actually have one. Thus, they can charge you as if you made one. They have "constructed" the possession. The defense to this would be that the parts you can be used to make something else that is legal, hence needing a pistol or stripped lower if you have an upper with a short barrel.

As a defense to 922r non-compliance, the argument doesn't make a lot of sense. You can't just have the parts lying around and argue that since you have them, the gun is compliant and thus can use standard capacity magazines. The gun itself does not meet 922r standards for standard cap mag use. You can't get around that without replacing or removing parts.
 
DMF I can see why you get upset because you've explained it all before, but honestly I'm still a bit confused on it, and I've read all your threads on it. They need to change the term to something else. Let's face it, "constructive possession" makes it sound like it means the ability to make an object; becuase that's what the hell construction means. So if that's not what "constructive possession" means, then they need to not call it "constructive possession", but something else. That's like calling a cat a dog, but then not understanding why people think of dog instead of cat when you say dog.

"Constructive Possession" should mean the ability to construct an object, because that's what the English language says it should mean. That's why people automatically assume that's what it means. You've explained that it doesn't mean what it clearly implies that it means; they should just change the term to something that implies what it really means.
 
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DMF I can see why you get upset because you've explained it all before, but honestly I'm still a bit confused on it, and I've read all your threads on it. They need to change the term to something else. Let's face it, "constructive possession" makes it sound like it means the ability to make an object; becuase that's what the hell construction means. So if that's not what "constructive possession" means, then they need to not call it "constructive possession", but something else. That's like calling a cat a dog, but then not understanding why people think of dog instead of cat when you say dog.

But then you would not need a law degree to understand the law, which could have a negative effect on the employment of many lawyers.

If "cat" always meant a cat as it means in english, and "dog" meant dog, then people with basic elementary education could understand the law.
Instead you must review the law itself, understand where legal terminology and English terminology differ, and then see if case law has further defined the meaning of "dog" to include other animals, including non "dogs" and under what circumstances.
Under various decisions setting precedent the definition may have been expanded, reduced, or further clarified to mean something even further from the English language, and different from what the statute itself says.
After researching the law and then the case law and precedents you would then understand if "dog" can apply to not only a dog or cat, but in some circumstances to an elephant under a statute referencing "dog".
:neener:

On top of that "Dog" could still mean completely different things and have very different definitions each time you crossed a state line, a federal district line, or a national line and the definition in law changing each time new precedent modified it within every different jurisdiction.

(While this is not likely to be the case with "dog" it is with many other things in law.)
 
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O.k., I know that the ATF doesn't take kindly to owning/possessing all the components needed to create a functioning machine gun, SBR, SBS, etc

I own a Remington 870, but also have a hacksaw in the garage. Am I in trouble under "contstructive possession"?
:eek:
 
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