A tale of two 380s

[doubleh]

I went to the range today to play around with some handloads in a Walther PPK/s and a RIA Baby Rock 380 and to compare the two guns side by side. It was windy, blowing from my right to left, but the berms around the pistol bays are around 8' high so it wasn't too bad. First off the two seem to weight the same when holding them in my hands and a set of old spring scales confirmed that they were so close that the scale could tell no difference. I was shooting 90 LRN bullets over WW 231. I used the starting load and went up in 1/10 grain increments to about maximum load, five shots of each in each gun.

I found the Walther to be more accurate of the two giving groups about half the size of the RIA with all loads. Recoil was much less with the RIA. The Walther got a little uncomfortable with the faster loads while I had no discomfort at all with the RIA. The RIA is much easier to rack the slide than the Walther. The Walther also had a function problem with a full mag of 6 rounds. The first one would hang up and not chamber. Five rounds in the mag and it functioned every time. This has not been a problem for it using jacketed bullets. The RIA shot every thing without a problem at all. The RIA had some lead in the bore after the shooting session and it doesn't have the smoothest bore I've ever seen in a pistol.. The Walther had none and it's bore is smooth and shiny.

Both guns are range toys. The Walther is my wife's and gets shot very little. The RIA is mine and I intend to make it earn it's keep.

 

[Hokkmike]

Not being critical, like the post - but I have a question. How would you define the term "range toy"? Thanks!

 

[doubleh]

A gun that's intended use is to go to a range, specific or improvised, and shoot for fun at various types of targets.

 

[5-SHOTS]

The RIA is locked breech and the Walther is blowback, right? If so I had no surprise the RIA is more comfortable to shoot. I used to own a Colt Government 380 stainless and it had less recoil than the Beretta 84. For the same reason the Walther with its fixed barrel had the edge in accuracy. I have instead to say my Colt was more accurate than the Beretta...
Post some pics of the two little beasts side by side, please!

 

[Hasaf]

The RIA is locked breech and the Walther is blowback, right? If so I had no surprise the RIA is more comfortable to shoot. I used to own a Colt Government 380 stainless and it had less recoil than the Beretta 84. For the same reason the Walther with its fixed barrel had the edge in accuracy. I have instead to say my Colt was more accurate than the Beretta...
Post some pics of the two little beasts side by side, please!

I am not so sure, I have seen various claims that the RIA is a blow-back pistol. I am not able to include any links right now and I didn't realize that was a question when I handled one; so I didn't check.

I will say that there is a mix of information about this. Hopefully someone will share something definitive.

 

[doubleh]

It comes apart like it's big brothers and the barrel lifts out. It does not have the swinging link but a solid block in it's place. Supposedly this makes it a locked breech design. Is or isn't, I don't know enough about it to stick my neck out and say one way or the other. I do know for a fact that the RIA has considerable less felt recoil with full power loads than the blow back Walther. I can tell the difference even with starting loads. I just wish the RIA could match the accuuracy of the Walther

 

[5-SHOTS]

I've just checked. It's a blowback design but the barrel is not fixed. That's probably one of the reasons the Walther is more accurate, the others being a tighter bore and better rifling. Who knows?
They weight the same but probably the RIA is much more comfortable in the hand and maybe the slide on the RIA is havier or the recoil spring is a little stronger, so the recoil impulse is less. Who knows?

 

[Tallball]

Every 380 I've ever shot is an inferior range toy compared the the Colt Government model. It's a mid-sized pistol that fires from a locked breech. The recoil is squat. It has nice sights and trigger. They only made them for a few years during the early 90's, but they're well worth hunting down. Mine is amazing.

 

[Hasaf]

Every 380 I've ever shot is an inferior range toy compared the the Colt Government model. It's a mid-sized pistol that fires from a locked breech. The recoil is squat. It has nice sights and trigger. They only made them for a few years during the early 90's, but they're well worth hunting down. Mine is amazing.

I am glad that I never got rid of mine. I have stopped carrying it because it is, for all intents and purposes, irreplaceable. If it weren't for the problems Browning is having with the 1911-380 I would say that they are very similar; however, Browning's manufacturer still seems to be working the bugs out. I now carry a Kimber Micro 380.

I never did like the sights though, I remember many years ago I had trouble qualifying with it, while I had no trouble at all qualifying with the standard 1911. I recently considered sending it to Novack to have better sights out on it; but I have, pretty much, decided to leave it alone. As it stands, just due to the sights, I can shoot the Kimber better than the Colt.

The .380 Government Model is definitely on my list of guns I would like to see Colt revive. Of course, I would also like them to make another release of their Black Powder pistols. I don't really expect to see either.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I picked up a beautiful nickel Browning BDA 380 recently -- and it's a tack driver that might give that Colt Government Model a run for it's money. I was pleasantly surprised by the very good trigger!

The Browning BDA 380 was built by Beretta for Browning/FN and shares the same basic design as the Berettas 81-89 models, which is a locked-breech design*. I don't know if the Berettas are all single-stack, but a number are -- while the Browning BDA is double-stack (13-rounds.)

*Correction: as noted in Tallball's reply (#12) below, the design, despite the fact that the barrel is removable, is NOT locked breech. It's a blowback design -- as is the Beretta design upon which the BDA 380 is based. (Don't know WHERE my mind was when I wrote the info above -- but my mistake may have happened I had just reassembled the gun after having removed the barrel.)​

It was interesting to see the FABRIQUE NATIONALE HERSTAL and MADE IN ITALY rollmark on one side of the slide and BROWNING ARMS COMPANY and MORGAN, UTAH & MONTREAL P.Q. on the other side.

 

[bannockburn]

Walt Sherrill

I had both the single stack Beretta Model 85 and the double stack Model 84. They were great guns though a little big for a .380. The Model 85 would make for a great beginner's gun while I found the Model 84 to be well suited for home defense.

 

[Tallball]

The Beretta 84 and pistols from that series are blowback. They're nice pistols, and I like mine, but they don't fire from a locked breech.

 

[Gary A]

Quote: “The .380 Government Model is definitely on my list of guns I would like to see Colt revive.”

I have long wished Sig would make a “government model” version of the P238. I have never believed they would do so but I’m pretty sure they’d sell at least one or two. To me.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The Beretta 84 and pistols from that series are blowback. They're nice pistols, and I like mine, but they don't fire from a locked breech.

You're correct and I was wrong... probably because I had just cleaned mine right before I responded. That included removing the barrel -- something you don't do easily with most blow-back guns.

I corrected that misstatement, above.

 

[Charlie98]

I did very much the same test with my brother's Walther and my Colt's Government .380... night and day. I don't like DA autos anyway, let alone with the slide mounted safety, but man that Walther would crack your hand! The Colt just glides along... like any other 1911 design.

One of the interesting things I saw at the last gunshow was a Browning .380 1911... like a slightly downsized 4/5ths 1911. It was still $700, sooooo it'll just stay there, and I'll go home and hug my Colt .380.

 

[Hasaf]

One of the interesting things I saw at the last gunshow was a Browning .380 1911... like a slightly downsized 4/5ths 1911. It was still $700, sooooo it'll just stay there, and I'll go home and hug my Colt .380.

The Browning 1911-380 adds a feature that I like, the grip safety. For that it remains on my shortlist. However, as you noted, I see it is being a bit more than I want to spend.

 

[Charlie98]

The Browning 1911-380 adds a feature that I like, the grip safety. For that it remains on my shortlist. However, as you noted, I see it is being a bit more than I want to spend.

The two biggest things that bug me about my Colt is the lack of a grip safety, and the very weak spring on the manual safety. Yes, it's got Series 80 lockwork, but I don't really want to put it to the test. For that reason, when I was carrying it, I had it hammer down on a loaded chamber.

 

[HisSoldier]

The Sig P238 is almost identical to the Colt gov't model internally, both use locked breech.

When RIA first started ramping up production of their little 1911 look like they said it would be locked breech, and yet the pistol they finally put on the market are blow back, why? If Sig and Colt can do it why can't RIA, after all their 1911's are far and away the best value in the low cost arena, they Could do it. Llama did it 70 years ago! The reason I was so hopeful about it was because they are building it with 4140, while many American gun makers use aluminum alloy. 4140 is about the best possible commercially viable alloy there is, so they were almost there!

 

[Gary A]

“Sig P238 is almost identical to the Colt gov't model internally”

Except they lock up quite differently. The Colt utilizes barrel lugs which lock into recesses in the slide which is why it can have that pleasing rounded top of the slide. The Sig locks up rather massively at the breech locking into the ejection port. It’s very solid but does result in a much more squared off slide.