Accuracy with a 1911

[Keepmvng]

I own a Kimber 1911 grand rapture that I have never been pleased with its accuracy. Over the years when I have taken it to the range, it has always had flyers. In comparison, I own a Smith & Wesson model 945 that has never had flyers and shoots very accurately with the same handloads. After getting advice from people that I consider experts, I took the gun to the recommended gunsmith and explained my issues with the rapture. I pointed out to him the play between the slide in the frame and he dismissed that as an issue. He asked me numerous questions about my shooting and told me he would spend time at a range, evaluate the gun, and get back with me. After several weeks I was called back to his shop and given his evaluation and recommendation. He was able to demonstrate 1 inch groups at 25 yards with match grade ammunition. The only thing he found wrong was a loose bushing that would help accuracy if replaced. The big thing that he recommended with my handloads was to stop using range brass (mixed brass). I have since replaced the bushing with a Bailey swivel bushing. The bushing was sized to a slight interference fit and had to be lapped to the barrel. The bushing is very tight to the slide and requires a tool for installation. Play between the slide and the frame has mostly gone away. No more flyers and the accuracy has improved greatly. Not as accurate as the 945, but I am very pleased.

 

[harrygunner]

If a decent barrel is fit properly, a 1911 can be very precise. And it can be argued, a loose frame-to-slide fit helps rather than hurts.

I have a couple of 1911's that have custom fit barrels. Barrel hood lockup and a tight barrel bushing can wring out the best of performances.

However, these days, regular production 1911's have nothing to sneeze at when it comes to precision.

Glad you had your issue resolved.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

As noted above, a tighter* frame-to-slide fit helps rather than hurts, but it's a consistent barrel to slide lockup that really matters, as long as you're using the sights (or sighting system) mounted on the slide. Sounds as though your gunsmith gave good advice.

While I've never been a big-time 1911 enthusiast, I've had several over the years, a couple well-made by good gunsmiths, and I've never had one that didn't require a tool to remove the bushing.

*(I wrote loose* the first time. My mind and fingers weren't working together. Sorry.)

 

[owlhoot]

If your gunsmith shot one inch groups at 25 yards before you installed the new bushing, and the new bushing improved the accuracy of the gun, well, that's a helluva shooter...

 

[bannockburn]

Keepmvng

If a decent barrel is fit properly, a 1911 can be very precise. And it can be argued, a loose frame-to-slide fit helps rather than hurts.

I have a couple of 1911's that have custom fit barrels. Barrel hood lockup and a tight barrel bushing can wring out the best of performances.

This is your answer right here, plus maybe getting the barrel link fitted as well. This gives you the consistency of the barrel and slide working together properly shot after shot and makes for a more accurate gun. Using good quality ammo, be it factory or reloads, will help with accuracy too.

 

[JTQ]

I own a Kimber 1911 grand rapture

For clarity, I'm pretty sure it is a Kimber Grand Raptor II you have rather than a Grand Rapture. I think there is a difference.

 

[Tirod]

Random range brass picked up and reloaded can very well affect accuracy. Different wall thicknesses and capacity will affect the amount of room for the charge to expand, and even more so, the relative elasticity of the brass itself won't be consistent. Harder or softer brass will have different rates of grasp on the base of the bullet and the amount of pressure it initially takes to release it. That causes the bullet to have different initial velocities jumping from the case to the rifling, and it could cause it to engrave into the rifling off axis from the inconsistency.

The precision shooters all use one lot of brass with no substitutions unless they replace it entirely with a new lot - not mixed brass with no idea of it's source. That way they control the capacity and alloy so that it is the only difference - and if things aren't up to snuff from that one change, they start all over fiddling with the recipe to find the sweet spot for that specific casing.

The proof in this is the gunsmith getting his results with match ammo - which uses identical components in every round, the only variation would be the consistency of the powder charge from the factory and his skill level if he shot it hand held. Using a rest would eliminate most of that - leaving only the ammo as the culprit.

The problem was mixed range brass - consider how much more inaccurate the total group would exhibit if reloaded steel or aluminum was included.

 

[Keepmvng]

If your gunsmith shot one inch groups at 25 yards before you installed the new bushing, and the new bushing improved the accuracy of the gun, well, that's a helluva shooter...

The first thing I noticed when I walked into his shop was the wall of awards and trophies. One of the awards was for IDPA world champion. Didn't see which year it was for, I was too busy answering his questions. He also showed me the target that was used, dated and noting the make. I assume he used a rest. Again, my primary reason for having the gun looked at was that it was throwing flyers and the 945 wasn't, using the same ammunition. No more flyers and I am extremely confident in the accuracy of this gun.

 

[Keepmvng]

Random range brass picked up and reloaded can very well affect accuracy. Different wall thicknesses and capacity will affect the amount of room for the charge to expand, and even more so, the relative elasticity of the brass itself won't be consistent. Harder or softer brass will have different rates of grasp on the base of the bullet and the amount of pressure it initially takes to release it. That causes the bullet to have different initial velocities jumping from the case to the rifling, and it could cause it to engrave into the rifling off axis from the inconsistency.

The precision shooters all use one lot of brass with no substitutions unless they replace it entirely with a new lot - not mixed brass with no idea of it's source. That way they control the capacity and alloy so that it is the only difference - and if things aren't up to snuff from that one change, they start all over fiddling with the recipe to find the sweet spot for that specific casing.

The proof in this is the gunsmith getting his results with match ammo - which uses identical components in every round, the only variation would be the consistency of the powder charge from the factory and his skill level if he shot it hand held. Using a rest would eliminate most of that - leaving only the ammo as the culprit.

The problem was mixed range brass - consider how much more inaccurate the total group would exhibit if reloaded steel or aluminum was included.

My thinking when reloading 45 ACP, it is low pressure, low temperature, low velocity. I've always been a fanatic for detail when reloading rifle. My 45 reloads are considerably more accurate than blazer. Years ago when my son was shooting in bull's-eye competition he only used one make a brass and he weighed every bullet. I just didn't think it made that much difference when shooting casual.

 

[Hanshi]

I've owned quite a few 1911s and took advantage of range brass every chance I had. My custom .45 1911 shoots great as does my custom 1911 .38sup. Yes, barrel to slide fit is the major issue. Mine have custom barrels which make a difference. I don't worry about 1.5" groups at 25 yards; that's as good as I can shoot nowadays, anyhoo.

 

[Dog Soldier]

As Bannockburn suggested.Start by checking your barrel link.

 

[Keepmvng]

Gentlemen,
I have not given up on range brass and I will explain why. I do not shoot in competition and I am not willing to give up drinking coffee. I am confident that I have the correct bullet, powder and primer. My issues with reloading 45 ACP has always been keeping the bullet concentric with the casing. Thin walled brass shows a bulge, and if the bulge is not equal 360°, it is a problem. When I was first reloading without quality dies and proper flaring of the case, I was getting bulges to one side of the casing. While taking a mental note of where the sites are in relation to the target, I'm placing holes where the gun is aimed. I can't ask for more than that. You can go to any public range and shoot a 3 inch ragged hole while shooting at 20 yards ( or even 15) and get people to come over and talk to you and want to see what gun you're shooting. All I was looking for was any missed shots were caused by the shooter not the gun.

 

[Jim Watson]

I assume your spell checker turned your Raptor into rapture and your Briley bushing into a Bailey.

I never heard of lapping in a Briley ball bushing. One turns the barrel straight and smooth and orders an internal ring a thousandth larger than the barrel. My guy went to .0005" difference. Mine is fine, except that I had to buy the appropriate size ring when the barrel failed and Briley replaced it on warranty, while blaming me and him for misfitting it. His chipped the TiN coating and scored the barrel badly.

 

[Keepmvng]

I assume your spell checker turned your Raptor into rapture and your Briley bushing into a Bailey.

I never heard of lapping in a Briley ball bushing. One turns the barrel straight and smooth and orders an internal ring a thousandth larger than the barrel. My guy went to .0005" difference. Mine is fine, except that I had to buy the appropriate size ring when the barrel failed and Briley replaced it on warranty, while blaming me and him for misfitting it. His chipped the TiN coating and scored the barrel badly.

As you well know fitting a swivel bushing and barrel together requires patience. The first time I fit the bushing to the barrel, the barrel only went halfway into the bushing. A slight bit of tapping got the bushing on to the barrel and a slight bit of tapping got the bushing off. Examination of the bushing showed no marks so I went ahead and assembled the gun. I ran approx 50 rounds through the gun before I was happy with the way the gun was cycling. That's my interpretation of lapping. Didn't mean to be misleading.

Spell check is sensitive here.

 

[Steve Cover]

I use a lot of range brass too.
For a while I instructed at an indoor range in Everett Washington.
A lot of the students were not reloaders and donated their once fired brass to me.
Over several years, I accumulated quite a number of brass.

This and general range pickups at an outdoor shooting area has given me as much assorted brass as I will ever need.
I always sort by head stamp and general appearance even for casual shooting.

Once sorted and shot in lots, I have no problem with accuracy.
You might want to segregate brass by head stamp too.
I keep my reloads in plastic ziplock bags.
Empty brass goes back into the bag with the reloads until the entire lot has been fired.

This should alleviate any concerns about the ammunition you use.

Steve

 

[CornCod]

Well, I suppose there is practical combat accuracy and the groups we get during a pleasant, leisurely day at the range. I suspect in an armed encounter there is pretty much no practical difference in performance between a Kimber Raptor-Rapture-Supercommando-Blessedbysaintjeffcoopermodel and a beater 1943 Military Model 1911. BTW, I don't own a beater 1943 Military Model 1911.

 

[Keepmvng]

I use a lot of range brass too.
For a while I instructed at an indoor range in Everett Washington.
A lot of the students were not reloaders and donated their once fired brass to me.
Over several years, I accumulated quite a number of brass.

This and general range pickups at an outdoor shooting area has given me as much assorted brass as I will ever need.
I always sort by head stamp and general appearance even for casual shooting.

Once sorted and shot in lots, I have no problem with accuracy.
You might want to segregate brass by head stamp too.
I keep my reloads in plastic ziplock bags.
Empty brass goes back into the bag with the reloads until the entire lot has been fired.

This should alleviate any concerns about the ammunition you use.

Steve

The amount of brass that I have in 45 ACP can best be measured in pounds. I have a enough CCI brass to last a lifetime. As an instructor you may agree that less experienced shooters should be concentrating on consistent grip and trigger control as well as keeping the front sight focused. Brass used in reloading would be a lesser concern. We could get into a whole discussion on reloading which maybe better saved for another thread.

 

[Keepmvng]

Well, I suppose there is practical combat accuracy and the groups we get during a pleasant, leisurely day at the range. I suspect in an armed encounter there is pretty much no practical difference in performance between a Kimber Raptor-Rapture-Supercommando-Blessedbysaintjeffcoopermodel and a beater 1943 Military Model 1911. BTW, I don't own a beater 1943 Military Model 1911.

My son's father-in-law has an extensive collection of guns from the Civil War, World War I, as well as modern guns of all varieties. A collection large enough to warrant the walkin safe that he stores them in. He invites you to use any gun in his collection, but his first choice has always been a 1911 dating back to World War I. This gun has so much play between the slide and the frame that it rattles when you shake it. The sights are little cast tabs on top of the slide. Shooting at 25 yards, my son and I are busy trying to outdo each other with the tightest groups, while father-in-law sets up a silhouette target and proceeds to show that this gun will hit it every time. I understand his love for this gun.

 

[Walkalong]

Mixed range brass isn't going to cause fliers out of the group. It might cause slightly bigger groups, but I can't shoot well enough to prove it one way or the other.

Mixed brass. On the last shot I gut in a hurry, had poor trigger discipline anticipating recoil, pulled the shot down, and ruined the group. All me.

 

[Walkalong]

Shot this one working up a load one day. Mixed brass. (7 yards through the chrono again) Same thing, "choked" on the last shot. *sigh* I worry about me sometimes.

 

[Keepmvng]

Mixed range brass isn't going to cause fliers out of the group. It might cause slightly bigger groups, but I can't shoot well enough to prove it one way or the other. Mixed brass. On the last shot I gut in a hurry, had poor trigger discipline anticipating recoil, pulled the shot down, and ruined the group. All me.

 

[Steve Cover]

The amount of brass that I have in 45 ACP can best be measured in pounds. I have a enough CCI brass to last a lifetime. As an instructor you may agree that less experienced shooters should be concentrating on consistent grip and trigger control as well as keeping the front sight focused. Brass used in reloading would be a lesser concern. We could get into a whole discussion on reloading which maybe better saved for another thread.

Quite true
There are lots of factors involved with accuracy.
However, I chose to only address the ammunition used as mentioned in the above post.
For casual plinking and informal target shooting, brass sorting is all I do for general consistency.

Steve
NRA Certified Handgun & Reloading Insructor

 

[tuj]

Ammo makes a HUGE difference. What are you shooting? The only factory ammo worth considering is ASYM Precision 185 JHP Nat'l Match or Federal Gold Medal. If you are loading yourself, what powder are you using? What brass? What primers? It all makes a big difference.

Also, have you shot the gun from a MECHANICAL REST?

 

[Keepmvng]

Also, have you shot the gun from a MECHANICAL REST?[/QUOTE]

Ammo makes a HUGE difference. What are you shooting? The only factory ammo worth considering is ASYM Precision 185 JHP Nat'l Match or Federal Gold Medal. If you are loading yourself, what powder are you using? What brass? What primers? It all makes a big difference.

Also, have you shot the gun from a MECHANICAL REST?

The attached picture was taken 9 years ago when I first got into reloading 45 ACP. Shots at 25 yds. Nosler 185 gr JHP, powder is VihtaVuori N 310, and at that time primers were CCI. After Obama came into office, I switched to Federal primers. As I have stated before, I have no issues with my reloads.