Advice on my .223 load.

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J_McLeod

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I'm loading .223 with some 55gr FMJs. I've compared the load data from Lyman and Hodgdon and loaded some rounds with 25.0, 25.5 and 26.0gr of Varget. When I got to 26.0 I noticed that the charge would be compressed even though I didn't seat the bullet to the cannelure. I know the max charge for this load will be compressed, but where does it start? Here's what I have, does this sound safe?

26.0+gr Varget
WSR Primer
PPU Brass
55gr FMJ (bullet length .742)
2.225 OAL

Hodgdon and Lyman both list 27 or more as the max. What worried me was that i was compressed. I thought maybe I have a longer bullet that will generate more pressure.
 
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26 grains is safe for a 55gr FMJ I think max should be around 27.5grs but I would refer to Hodgens website.
 
What worried me was that i was compressed.

Don't be worried. Compressed loads are fine, even great, as long as the load is within published data. Compressing smokeless powder does not increase pressure by itself. I like compressed loads. I find them much more accurate and more consistent then non-compressed loads.
 
Don't be worried. Compressed loads are fine, even great, as long as the load is within published data. Compressing smokeless powder does not increase pressure by itself. I like compressed loads. I find them much more accurate and more consistent then non-compressed loads.
I do too, more accurate and consistent I mean. You can actually get more over pressure with a weak load that doesn't fill the case enough. Subsonic rifle loads for example, the erratic velocities indicate erratic pressures.

Usually data will say if it is compressed though so you know you didn't overdo it.

My loadbooks shows Hodgdon data (but this isn't as up to date as their website) and it says 25.5 for starting and 27.5 for max at 3384fps and 49,700PSI and that it is a compressed load (whereas the starting load isn't). Winchester brass.

If you use IMI brass or LC, or military brass in general, it is thicker and you may want to scale back a bit and work up to that velocity. If your brass is filled to the neck with the lower loads, and you are using military brass, you could be close to the max load at 26+ grains.

As to when it is compressed... That is more academic than anything esle, but at some point you can tell... Kind of like porn I guess, you know it when you see it. When they get really compressed, you can feel it on the press. When you hear it crunch, that is compression of the powder.
 
Oh yeah, Varget isn't exactly the best for 5.56 or 6.5 in my experience. It works, but it seems to work better in 7.62, which it is my go to powder in that calibre. I am having decent luck with H335 though in smaller bores. 6.5 seems to be the turning point for me, it works with powders that work in either.

My groups tightened by a whole inch by using the H335, so down to about 1.5MOA for an M4. I get sub-MOA in 6.5Grendel with it and 100gr. AMAX, but that opens up with some other powders.

Good luck, and shoot safe!
 
If you use IMI brass or LC, or military brass in general, it is thicker and you may want to scale back a bit and work up to that velocity. If your brass is filled to the neck with the lower loads, and you are using military brass, you could be close to the max load at 26+ grains.

Although this is true in Military 7.62/.308 and 30-06 Military brass it is less true with 5.56/223 brass. As a matter of fact most military 5.56 brass has more case capacity then civilian 223 brass.
 
Just fired the same load in my AR yesterday only difference was using LC brass, worked well with fair accuracy no signs of pressure problems.
 
Although this is true in Military 7.62/.308 and 30-06 Military brass it is less true with 5.56/223 brass. As a matter of fact most military 5.56 brass has more case capacity then civilian 223 brass.
I know this gets reapeated a lot on here, but I disagree. Mostly because I agree with Speer more than internet people. No offense intended.

I have the loadbooks for several calibres (GREAT investment for any reloader, period). Speer indicates that the loads do not have to be reduced BECAUSE they use IMI brass which is similar to LC. BTW, Speer shows the same load to be 27gr. (and not compressed) using IMI brass. Speer does not show pressures though.

While the difference may be more pronounced (I only use Federal Match right now in 7.62, got a GREAT deal on brass at a gunshow years ago, so I'm not all that sure experience-wise!). The LC brass I do have is much thicker, and I recall LC 7.62 brass being insanely thick.

However, it would seem to me that the difference would be more pronounced in the 5.56 due to the smaller diameter. I studied a lot of math, analysis in particular, so I tend to look at things a little different than the average bear. For fear of dragging this into a urination match, I'll leave all that out.

I don't doubt the load wingman fired was fine. But at 26gr. in military brass, you ARE approaching the max load earlier. Whether or not the difference is pronounced is irrelevant with max loads. That there is a difference at all in the data is very important. Max loads are rationalized to be safe because there is a bit of a safety net, the max loads pressure specs are not REALLY the max. A proof load is, and you only get to fire three of those on average before you blow a barrel.

Now the first proof doesn't blow it, and I think that gives some folks a false sense of security when they load a round and it seems to be fine, when in fact it is over pressure. You could also be firing slightly over pressure loads that aren't dangerous because they are only slightly over pressure but well under the "true max" or proof pressure.

Remember, we all load at our own risk. It is one of the few things like it you can do without the governement over your shoulder. Considering what is involved, and the state of affairs, I'm surprised it is legal at all (and that reason probably has more to do with their ignorance and the lack of media attention to KB's and such). Just don't get lured into a false sense of security.

What I'd really like to see is some kind of test device cheap enough to make that has subcalibre inserts and is used to check pressure only. Ranges could make a killing charging to use it! I'd certainly test every max load I made, in summer and winter.

Every weapon is different, so the data we use is a one size fits all and is usually safe, but max loads are a different story. Just be careful, that is all I'm trying to illustrate.
 
I know this gets reapeated a lot on here, but I disagree. Mostly because I agree with Speer more than internet people. No offense intended.

Would you believe Sierra?

The conventional wisdom to reduce loads with military brass is familiar to most reloaders and is generally good advice. The rationale here is that the military cases tend to be somewhat thicker and heavier than their civilian counterparts, which in turn reduces capacity and raises pressures. This additional pressure normally requires a one or two grain reduction from the loads shown in most manuals or other data developed with commercial cases. While this is most often the situation with both 308 Winchester and 30-06 cases, it is less true with the 223 brass. We have found that military cases often have significantly more capacity than several brands of commercial brass. Again, take the time to do a side-by-side comparison of the cases you are working with and adjust your load as needed. There may be no need for such a reduction with the 223. Know your components and keep them segregated accordingly.

link.
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm

There is also this. Scroll down to Weight vs Capacity.
http://www.6mmbr.com/223rem.html
 
So GI 5.56 brass is thicker then commercial .223 brass?
Hmmmm.

How come I have 1,000 empty commercial .223 Remington cases that are thicker, heavier, and have less capacity then the several thousand old LC GI 5.56 cases I also have??

It's a real Ponderment isn't it? :scrutiny:

rc
 
jus t a observation but useing 25+ grains of powder in a 223 is not cost effective.there are other powders out there that can do the same thing with less than 22 grns.look into imr or hogdens 4198.it was made for the 223 and uses less powder.
 
When I got to 26.0 I noticed that the charge would be compressed even though I didn't seat the bullet to the cannelure. but where does it start?
Your starting load of 25 gr. should tell you if the PPU Brass will be a problem. Maybe someone will load a few with Varget and let you know when its compressed in different brands of brass. :) In the past, 308 PPU Brass produced high pressure with a safe starting load. Faulty Brass.
 
hogdens 4198.it was made for the 223
Actually, it wasn't.

The .223/5.56 NATO was just a gleam in Gene Stoner & Mike Walkers eye when 4198 was first produced.

Neither Hodgdon, or IMR says anything about it being intended, or best suited for the .223.

It first drew my attention as a great powder for the .222 Remington in about 1962.

Truth be known, it is a little too fast for the .223/5.56, especially in gas operated rifles.
Or with heavier bullets.

rc
 
I have some MKE 08 that weights 102.4 gr to 99.2gr, heavy for the 223/5.56. BHM runs 95.6 to 93.0 gr. Normal is 96 to 93 grs. for most brands.
 
Compressed loads with Varget in .223 are completely normal in my experience. With heavy bullets they start crunching around 23.5-24 grains.

In my experience Varget isn't at it's best with 55gr FMJ in .223. It really seems to work at its best with the 65-80gr bullets. If you pressed me, I might consider Alliant's RL-15 a bit better, but it's splitting hairs.

As for military versus commercial cases, it depends. Lake City cases are normally lighter than commercial cases. I don't remember the weight differences off the top of my head, though I recall the LC cases I weighed averaged around 94-95gr empty and sized.
 
Zero the scale with comparison case #1 on the platen, fill it up with water. Record the weight. Repeat for comparison case #2. There's your difference in volume.

Just looking at empty case weights is hit or miss. Some have thicker bases and/or webbing.
 
26.0+gr Varget
WSR Primer
PPU Brass
55gr FMJ (bullet length .742)
2.225 OAL

This is my load exactly, & my AR LOVES it!
(ok, well maybe not WSR primers)
But everything else is exact.

So there nothing to worry about.
 
I took Sierra's advice and measured case capacity in grains of H20 myself. I have three kinds of brass, LC, Remington and GFL(Fiocchi). I tested five of each and took the average.

GFL dry weight-102.4gr
With H20-131.4
Case capacity in grains of H20-29gr

Remington Dry weight-95.2gr
With H20-125.1gr
Case capacity in grains of H20-29.9gr

LC Dry weight-96.3gr
With H20-126.7gr
Case capacity in grains of H20-30.4gr.

So, for the brass I am using the Military brass has more case capacity then the civilian brass. As suggested by Sierra, test your own brass to be sure. As I said, don't follow the Internet Myth, check for yourself.
 
Remember, we all load at our own risk. It is one of the few things like it you can do without the governement over your shoulder. Considering what is involved, and the state of affairs, I'm surprised it is legal at all (and that reason probably has more to do with their ignorance and the lack of media attention to KB's and such). Just don't get lured into a false sense of security.

What I'd really like to see is some kind of test device cheap enough to make that has subcalibre inserts and is used to check pressure only. Ranges could make a killing charging to use it! I'd certainly test every max load I made, in summer and winter.

Every weapon is different, so the data we use is a one size fits all and is usually safe, but max loads are a different story. Just be careful, that is all I'm trying to illustrate.


Excellent advice and well written, your correct what works for me may not for others,very seldom do I use max loads I find that majority of my most accurate loads are less then max.
 
I use hogdon benchmark starting load. It is great for the 223. I used the Lyman 49 edition loading manual. It is very accurate. This works for me. Remember start min and work up.
 
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