Affordable AR15s to better support Second Amendment "Right to Keep and Bear Arms"

[kcofohio]

I think that was the OPs view but I'm afraid that is a skewed view and could become just the opposite when it comes to flooding the market with cheap affordable ones.

If they become the saturday night special of rifles then gangs and thugs are more likely to try to acquire them and then if they are getting used in crimes it could hurt their view from the public eyes. The anti gun views have been bad enough even though they were used in a very small number of crimes.

Criminals will get guns illegally one way or another.
https://www.thedesertreview.com/new...cle_58b24c2a-bbe0-11ea-aaa3-e754ea5c27af.html

The report said the shipment, valued at almost $130,000, originated from Shenzen, China and was intended for a residence in Melbourne, Florida.

 

[LiveLife]

If they become the saturday night special of rifles then gangs and thugs are more likely to try to acquire them and then if they are getting used in crimes it could hurt their view from the public eyes.

And Hi-Point defiantly continues to manufacture "affordable" pistols and carbines in the USA so more law abiding citizens can exercise their Second Amendment right.

While gangs and thugs could have acquired to use them in crimes but I do not believe that has "hurt" the public sentiment regarding Hi-Point firearms.

 

[LiveLife]

I want a .. fully auto

You could learn "candence shooting" to come close legally. It's actually quite doable and I have incorporated into my point shooting drills (Jump to 5:20 minute of video)



OK, back to OP.

 

[Bazoo]

You may be in a place where you can't shop around for a FFL but my guy charges $15. There are several right around me that charge $10.00 but I don't care for them much.


Academy is well stocked with it. No problems finding ammo in my part of Texas.

I wish there was a cheaper option for me. The two shops in town charge $25. Plus tax now, so its $27 I think.

I don’t really have other options I’m aware of. At one time though, there was a gunshop that transferred for free for regulars. That was sweet.

 

[webrx]

I like the concept of familiarity making the nasty black rifles less scary I am just afraid that in today's society it is a losing battle. Does not mean we should not keep fighting it though.


We all know that legally owned guns are not the problem. You have all heard this before I am sure, it is not about what "type of gun" is used in gun violence, it is about "who" has those guns.

Between 73% and 93% of all gun deaths that were not suicide involved people with a "prior criminal record".

Gangs account for anywhere from 15% to 33% all gun deaths - aka around half of the remaining non-suicide gun deaths (Firearm violence by private actors has a strong socio-economic dimension. It is typically concentrated in low income urban neighborhoods with high levels of crime - this from amnesty.org).

Drugs or drug related activity account for another large percentage but these significantly overlap the two stats above (gangs and criminals) so are hard to separate out.

All in all, suicides, drugs, gangs, criminal activity account for almost all gun deaths in the USA (my guess is 90-95% but again hard to narrow it down as we have to depend on who is reporting this to get specifics), the remainder would be domestic violence, racial, political or religious motivated, and the infrequent (less than 1%) school or mass shooting.

So, again we all know this, stop the drugs (100,000 lives a year lost due to overdoses btw over twice that of gun deaths) and you stop the crime and related gang/gun deaths associated with drugs. Shut down the gangs and criminal activity in mostly urban areas, hold criminals accountable, etc, etc, etc

Here is a interesting article - yes it is from 2018, and yes, 2020 to present numbers may be slightly different but we also had peaceful protests, covid, defund the police, etc during those times.

Here Are 8 Stubborn Facts on Gun Violence in America

https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-justice/commentary/here-are-8-stubborn-facts-gun-violence-america

As always, don't trust my research, do your own, i am just sharing what I have gleaned from the internet so you all know it must be true.

d

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

And Hi-Point defiantly continues to manufacture "affordable" pistols and carbines in the USA so more law abiding citizens can exercise their Second Amendment right.

While gangs and thugs could have acquired to use them in crimes but I do not believe that has "hurt" the public sentiment regarding Hi-Point firearms.

That is because AR15 are the focal point of the anti-gun crowd even though used in a very small number of crimes so my point was IF they become more available to those committing crimes it will just add fuel to that fire. Don't fool yourself into thinking the ignorant that fear something will accept it when they are exposed to it even more. It can work just opposite of what you are thinking, especially when you look at the piles of seized weapons they generally lean towards cheap guns not expensive ones.

 

[LiveLife]

The last thread on the subject ended in flames because members can't have a simple discussion without bickering. Please, stay on topic, stay polite, and keep the thread open.

And my request for this thread.

Let's narrow our focus of this thread discussion to proliferation of AR15s becoming common due to lowering of cost down to handgun pricing to make them "common in use" for courts/US Supreme Court to expand Second Amendment protection. I am sure you want to discuss ongoing/never ending issues surrounding Second Amendment but let's keep other discussions out of this thread.

Thank you.

 

[md7]

I remember the days and first few years after the AWB sunset that AR’s were expensive and somewhat rare. They certainly weren’t nearly as ubiquitous as they are now.

My opinion is that there are primary 3 factors that have caused AR proliferation to be what it is today. In no order, they’re as follows-

- The AWB sunset happened during the early days of the GWOT and many young service personnel wanted a rifle they had recently grown accustomed to seeing and using

- The AWB sunset has persisted. The longer it went, the more rifles were available and the more common they became.

- As demand grew, more companies came online to meet production necessary to satisfy the demand. AR’s of varying price in the market was a result also

Combining these factors, and probably others, we’ve reached the point where the AR has become common by any usage or consideration of that word. And manufacturers exist to provide options spanning the economic spectrum.

TL/DR….. AR proliferation is good, and having rifles available to anyone of almost any budget is also good.

 

[AlexanderA]

We all know that legally owned guns are not the problem.

Exactly. There's a huge disconnect between the veneer of gun laws and the reality on the street. Criminals, and those contemplating violence, will get guns regardless of the laws. There are simply too many of them already out there. (And this is true on a worldwide basis.) In principle, unenforceable laws should be removed. Keeping them on the books only increases contempt for the laws in general.

 

[lsudave]

There was a couple messages about the cost of a FFL transfer; and I've seen prices go up firsthand around me for that.

However, there might be workarounds (legal, to be clear) that you don't know about-
one of the local pawn chains near me is a PSA affiliate. I imagine this might be more common than we think. So what this means, is I can walk into that pawn shop, ask about PSA Deal of the Day, and they have some in stock, or can order more from the mothership.
I do a normal in-store 4473: they run the check as a matter of purchase, not an extra charge for a transfer. So when PSA has lowers for $49, they charge $49+ tax. Might not be the absolute lowest price, but is almost always in the lowest 10%, and the lack of transfer fee makes the difference.

I did that recently for a stripped receiver, bought a cheap parts kit and a cheap upper, and put together basically an A2 or A4 model.

 

[JFrank]

Personally I don’t think flooding the market with cheap AR -15’s helps the cause

 

[LiveLife]

Personally I don’t think flooding the market with cheap AR -15’s helps the cause

Can you think of ways "affordable" AR15s can make more new younger gun owners and how they could vote for gun rights in future elections?

 

[JFrank]

No

 

[LiveLife]

No

Not one?

At least these AR15s being manufactured/assembled in the USA is helping the local/US economy.

 

[illinoisburt]

Personally I don’t think flooding the market with cheap AR -15’s helps the cause

Please elaborate. I think it's a good thing when average people can find and afford to acquire decent firearms. In the past decade or so we have seen a rapid expansion of concealed carry and self defense laws. I believe this is a direct result of the huge number of reliable and affordable compact polymer pistols which have been offered from companies like Taurus, Ruger, S&W, and Sig. I personally don't think a $250 pocket pistol is the best thing since sliced bread, but it has brought huge numbers of new owners into the fold and if anything has helped push more innovation in the design of other 'higher end' pistols as well. The old 'Saturday Night Special' catch phrases don't elicit the fears of the public anymore when ownership is so common and people see can look at themselves and friends to say we resemble those comments and they are patently untrue.

If all the big box sporting goods stores had shelves filled with generic ARs for $299 from various makers I'm sure the same enthusiastic response from the public would be forthcoming. When we get to the point of 50 to 100 million in circulation here people will have the same reactions -- everyone has one and the fear mongering is baloney.

 

[webrx]

Can you think of ways "affordable" AR15s can make more new younger gun owners and how they could vote for gun rights in future elections?

Yes,

I think ARs are the "soup of the day" in firearms, my kids love them, want them, shoot them, when I was the scout leader here locally, I offered up to the parents a day at the range, not a sanctioned scout event, but, if the kid and their parent wanted to come shoot or learn to shoot they were welcome.

Every kid there wanted to shoot the AR, they also wanted to shoot the 10/22 and Beretta neos, and lever actions. But I have to say the AR was the most favored that day. Now this was some years back, but, I can say, that my 21 year old son and his friends all want to shoot ARs.

So, I think is definitely has an impact on future voters, assuming their parents are not anti-black gun of course.

d

 

[CherokeeGunslinger]

No, but in the historical context there was clearly a linkage between the militia and the right to keep and bear arms. IMO Scalia got this wrong in the Heller case. The missing part is that in 1791, essentially everybody was considered to be part of the militia. There's a strong argument, unaddressed by the Supreme Court, that everybody, as members of the inchoate (unorganized) militia, is entitled to the same arms as the standing military. But this is obviously too radical an idea for the powers-that-be.

Based on this, the NFA (and especially the Hughes Amendment) would be unconstitutional.

The guy I was replying to was arguing historical context (quite ignorantly with respect to the full history behind the Second Amendment, I might add) to limit the scope of the Second Amendment. He argued the idea that the Second Amendment was written solely to protect arms that were relevant to a modern combat force, and that as such, it should protect nothing else. I explained why that logic was ridiculous, it honestly reminds me of that ridiculous "you aren't part of the militia" anti-gunner drivel.

One could also assert that "shall not be infringed" means that the NFA is absolutely stupid and unconstitutional, but I like your argument too.

 

[rust collector]

The OP indicated that he thought the availability of inexpensive AR pattern rifles was a positive development, and listed a few examples. Some had other examples, but then we wandered into the weeds of our individual assessments of the effect of accessible ARs. While the OP is partially responsible for what we call a compound question (ie why didn't he simply ask for suggestions for inexpensive ARs), it doesn't really matter how each of us feels about this development.

If you have some links for sub $500 ARs currently available that you feel have the right stuff, post them here. If you don't, no problem but no need to weigh in, either. And if you can't be bothered to read the prior comments before posting, our work here is done.

 

[Will Munny]

Alright, let's point out several issues with this logic.

1. This opens the door for a subjectivist interpretation of the Second Amendment. By arguing that the Second Amendment only applies to those arms that would be relevant to the operations of a modern combat force, you're opening up the door for arguments that do things such as rationalizing bans on concealed carry and hollow-point ammunition, as modern combat forces don't carry their firearms concealed and don't use hollow-point ammunition. What you're arguing can be used to dismantle many of the legal gains that the 2A community have strived for. There's a reason why the Supreme Court spelled out in D.C. v. Heller that the 2A consists of two clauses (the Prefatory Clause and the Operative Clause) but only one of them has any legal standing.
2. While it's true that the Founding Fathers wrote the Second Amendment with the goal of defense against government tyranny, they wrote it in such a broad and, frankly, absolutist way as to protect the possession and carrying of arms in other contexts, and they did so on purpose. Saying that the Second Amendment was written solely for the purpose of protecting the ability of a militia to possess arms conducive to its functioning is ignorant of history and of the very writtings of the Founding Fathers. You could have a warship armed with dozens of cannons in 1789 and the government was fine with it: as a matter of fact, many of the naval engagements preceding the Mexican-American War were fought by private warships whose captains were issued Letters of Marque by the United States Congress. You brought up how the British Army came to confiscate muskets and artillery but not pocket knives, yet you didn't bring up private warships and Letters of Marque.
3. The spirit of the law can't be used as a modifier upon its text. The Second Amendment says, "the right of the people," not "the right of militias." Again, as the Supreme Court pointed out, the Prefatory Clause ("A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,") explained the spirit of the law but had no effect on the Operative Clause ("the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.") It's that simple.

I suppose I could dig up a few other reasons as to why the idea of "the Second Amendment was solely written to protect militias" is absolutely nonsensical and historically unfounded, but this would become painstakingly boring and not worth my time. It's already painstaking that such an issue has to even be addressed in a forum where, logically, people should understand the scope of the Second Amendment and the historical context behind it.

The Second Amendment doesn't say "the right of militias to keep arms necessary for the purpose of civil and national defense."

No, read what I wrote again. The Second Amendment applies to both National AND Civil Defense. The Concealment and HP issues you raise fall under civil defense. Moreover, the HP issue also is resolved by national defense.
Again, read what I wrote, their purpose was not solely, or even primary defense against "tyrannical government", their primary concern was both civil and national defense.
As to the third, you are misreading the amendment. The "with respect to" indicates for what group and purpose the law applies. The people portion is only there to indicate who is considered part of the militia.
You are straw-manning here "the Second Amendment was solely written to protect militias", nowhere did I say that.

 

[gunmechanic]

My son and all his friends built there own ars .Now they reload and have built 2/3 and more .It was nice seeing them all come over to our small farm to build and shoot them . This is how the 2a will be kept alive .The next generation must embrace the Hobby/Right we have!