gunsmith
member
So if it (ccw) has not "created problems" Jim,why the heck don't you stop trying to prevent folks from protecting their own lives? ya creep!
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031201/NEWS08/112010148
Ohio draws bead on bill similar to Michigan concealed-gun law
BLADE COLUMBUS BUREAU CHIEF
COLUMBUS - Since the Michigan law that made it easier for citizens to carry concealed handguns took effect in July, 2001, the number of permit holders has nearly doubled and crime has dropped.
Backers of a bill that would give Ohio a similar law say the result - more armed law-abiding citizens and lower crime - could happen in Ohio if the legislature and Gov. Bob Taft break their impasse.
In 2000, Michigan had an estimated 4,109 crimes per 100,000 residents, the FBI says. The rate in Ohio was 4,041 per 100,000 residents.
According to data for 2002, Michigan’s crime rate declined to 3,874 per 100,000 residents and Ohio’s increased to 4,107.
"For over 40 years, Michigan’s per capita crime rate has exceeded Ohio’s; the new [data] proves all that has changed," said Jim Irvine, chairman of the political action committee for Ohioans for Concealed Carry, Inc.
Ohio is one of five states that do not allow concealed handguns. The others are Illinois, Kansas, Nebraska, and Wisconsin.
In 1998, as legislators prepared to revise Michigan’s 71-year-old concealed-carry law so more citizens could get licenses, attorney James Neal wrote in the Lansing State Journal: "If concealed handguns are allowed to proliferate in Michigan, it will mean more violence, accidents, deaths, and injuries."
Leaders of the gun rights movement in Michigan assert that Mr. Neal and other critics were wrong, but they are reluctant to draw a correlation between more concealed-carry permits and less crime. There are too many variables, they say.
"There’s no way of making any direct connection, but there is no place where there has been any substantial increase in crime all attributable to you and I having more freedom to transport firearms," said Dale Shantz, a resident of Elberta, Mich., who is president of the Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners.
"It’s one more piece of liberty," added Daniel Bambery, a DeWitt, Mich., attorney who represents the pro-gun group.
Bruce Gelispie, an Akron native who has lived in Michigan for 19 years, said there are several incidents that show how concealed-carry has prevented crimes.
He said last year a friend had left the General Motors plant where he works in Flint about 2:30 a.m. when he reached a blocked train crossing. A man tried to get into his car through a rear passenger door.
Mr. Gelispie said his friend, who has a concealed-carry license, pulled his 45-caliber handgun and pointed it at the man, who ran away.
"My friend then called the police. You always do that, because the person might have gotten your license plate and could call the police and say you might have pulled a gun on them," said Mr. Gelispie, an auto worker who also is a National Rifle Association-trained instructor.
Michigan’s less restrictive concealed-carry law hasn’t created problems, but there is no evidence it has led to a drop in crime, said Jim Kessler, policy director for Americans for Gun Safety, in Washington.
"One of the reasons is so few people actually choose to carry a concealed weapon. In rural areas, very few people are afraid of crime. In urban areas, people are more concerned about crime, but they think carrying a gun will get them into more trouble, will put their lives at risk more, and they’re probably right," Mr. Kessler said.
For 2000, Michigan reported an estimated 52,242 violent crimes in urban areas. The figure in Ohio was 35,112.
Last year, Michigan reported 50,097 violent crimes in urban areas. The figure for Ohio increased to 37,428.
Urban law enforcement officials in Michigan cited closer cooperation among agencies and improved crime-fighting techniques for the decline.
In the rural county of Hillsdale, with a population of about 50,000, Sheriff Stan W. Burchardt said the new concealed-carry law hasn’t had an effect on the low crime rate.
"Where the help might be is in areas where there are car-jackings or people are strong-armed robbed, but that doesn’t happen here," the sheriff said.
Detroit City Councilman Kay Everett said the law has given more business owners a "comfort zone" in Wayne County. But she said the debate pales in importance to efforts to crack down on trafficking of illegal guns in Detroit.
"These gun dealers are allowed to sell weapons on the open market and they get away with selling AK-47s. The federal government is not doing its job," she said.
Michigan has had a law enabling citizens to carry concealed handguns since 1927.
The new law in Michigan which took effect on July 1, 2001, was to address varying standards that county gun boards used to judge applications for licenses.
Before the new law was in place, county gun boards - which consist of the prosecuting attorney, sheriff, and a representative of the state police - had too much power to determine who received a permit that could be used throughout the state, critics said.
Applicants had to be at least age 18 and were required to demonstrate a need to carry a concealed handgun. There was no requirement for training.
In some counties, those without a felony conviction could get a concealed-carry permit. In others, retired law enforcement officers or security guards generally were the only ones to get them, Mr. Bambery said.
"We have 83 counties and we had 83 different standards to receive a permit," he said.
In December, 2000, the Michigan legislature approved a bill that says county gun boards "shall issue" permits to applicants who don’t have a criminal record or a history of mental illness. Then-Gov. John Engler signed it into law.
Counting concealed-carry permits with restrictions, Michigan had 51,954 permit holders in 2000.
Nearly 30 months after the revised law took effect, Michigan has 90,369 permit holders, state officials say.
From July 1, 2001, to June 30 of this year, county gun boards have rejected slightly more than 1 percent of the applications for such permits. For example, the Hillsdale County gun board denied only 12 of 509 applications in that period.
The leading reasons for rejected applications in Michigan are county gun board decisions and residents with misdemeanor convictions. Although gun boards have less discretion than before July 1, 2001, they can reject applications by citing "clear and convincing evidence" of civil infractions, crimes, personal protection order or injunctions, police reports, other evidence, or "statements that bear directly on the applicant’s ability to carry a concealed weapon," according to the Monroe County Sheriff’s Department.
From July 1, 2001, to June of this year, about one-tenth of one percent of licenses were revoked, with the leading reason being applicants convicted of a felony or a misdemeanor. Crimes have included a rape, a felony assault, domestic assault, and alcohol-related offenses.
The low rate of applications denied and licenses revoked does not surprise Mr. Bambery, given the requirement that applicants pass background checks.
"The people who are exercising this right are really the people who have never been in trouble and foreseeably probably never will be," he said.
But the entire concealed-carry system relies on background check systems that have flaws, said Mr. Kessler, the policy director for Americans for Gun Safety.
In a 2002 report titled "Broken Records," Americans for Gun Safety said 401 people in Michigan who shouldn’t have been able to buy guns were able to do so despite background checks.
Utah is the only state that checks daily if a concealed-carry permit holder has committed a crime and if so, that person’s permit is revoked, Mr. Kessler said.
"It requires computerizing your records and cross-checking, which a lot of states have not done," he said.
Although county gun board meetings are open to the public, Michigan law exempts information about concealed-carry permits from the state public records law.
That prevents citizens and the press from finding out who applied for a permit and who has them, said Carolynne Jarvis, executive director of the Michigan Partnership to Prevent Gun Violence, a Lansing-based gun-control group.
"There’s no way to determine what the effect of this law is. We’d like to pretend there is, but there isn’t. The whole purpose of the way the law was put together is you couldn’t and it’s not accidental," Ms. Jarvis said.
In Ohio, Governor Taft - who has said for nearly five years he won’t sign a concealed-carry bill into law unless it has adequate background checks, training requirements, and support from law enforcement - surprised legislators recently when he said he would veto any bill that bars the public from knowing who has permits.
Backers of the bill say that cloaking who is carrying handguns is crucial to deterring crime. They also point out that the House version of the bill would require an annual report on the number of licenses issued, renewed, suspended, revoked, and denied - similar to information that the Michigan State Police provide.
Mr. Bambery said the Michigan law has worked well, but he said some counties improperly have tried to add conditions.
The Michigan Coalition for Responsible Gun Owners recently sued Kent County, which has required applicants to provide a letter from their physician vouching they aren’t or haven’t been mentally ill.
The additional paperwork is unnecessary because applicants must sign a statement allowing county gun boards to access their medical records, the group charges.
Mr. Bambery, who described himself as a libertarian, said his criteria for evaluating the new law is a simple one.
"It’s how many citizens have decided they are going to exercise their rights to a concealed-carry permit. It has been a fairly significant number, but it has not been the rush that the critics were forecasting," he said.
Mr. Bambery is among those who don’t have a permit.
"I live in a small town. I have pistols and enjoy shooting them, and I took the concealed-carry training. But it’s not my thing," he said.
Last month, two men drove up to 22-year-old Johnny Donaldson, Jr., as he beat a 16-year-old girl with a metal pipe on the west side of Detroit, police said.
The man in the passenger seat shot and killed Mr. Donaldson and sped away. No arrests have been made and there is no evidence that the gunman had a concealed-carry permit.
But John Birch, president of a group in Oak Brook, Ill., that supports such laws and other gun issues, said he hopes the gunman does have a permit and will step forward.
"Stopping an in-progress felony is good citizenship. I think the fear level has been transferred from the victims to the criminals," Mr. Birch said.
