Alrighty Everyone That New Reloader Back With More Questions

[gunghorjc]

The recommendation for purchasing a manual was the best thing anyone could have given me. I'm planning on picking up a few more in addition to this one (Sierra 5th edition) as well as The ABC's of Reloading.

Following the data that the manual has for 115 GR. JHP using Titegroup I've been having quite a few problems with feeding, failure to eject, and the slide not locking back in my Taurus PT 24/7 9mm.

The amount of powder the manual is calling for is 3.7 for it's minimum charge. They've 3 more listings for 4.0, 4.2 and 4.5 grains.

I looked through the manuals facts and questions but didn't find nothing really tailored to my question. Should I move up to the next load of 4.0 or is there something else I'm missing here?

 

[twofifty]

Tell us what bullet type you are using, and what your average overall COL is. How does the gun run with commercial ammo with similar bullet weights and shapes?

You stated that you are loading to the manual's minimum charge, so you could try loading 10 rds at 4.0gr and see if the higher velocity helps reliability. It probably will. I normally work up in 0.1gr increments...

Consider also that at minimum charge, some pistols operate more reliably with a lighter recoil spring. OEM springs can be quite heavy.

If the round hangs up while being pushed up the ramp, sometimes a change in COL improves things. Provided you are not near or at maximum charge, feeding can be more reliable with a slightly shorter COL; sometimes with a longer COL. You could experiment by loading a few rounds with the bullets seated a bit longer and a bit shorter. A bit is .005" of an inch.

 

[gunghorjc]

I'm using Sierra 115 grain JHP and the C.O.A.L. is between 1.045 and 1.050, most end up being 1.049 it seems. The manual says that 1.050 should be the C.O.A.L. for the 115 grain JHP, so it seems that I'm already in your range of .005". That 1.050" is maximum, I don't want to go over that by .005" do I?

I've got 30 small pistol primers left. Need to start buying the reloading supplies in bulk, they get used fast, especially right now while I'm still learning and getting started.

 

[twofifty]

In my Lyman manual, the closest bullet is a Hornady 115gr JHP.
With Titegroup, the start load is 4.0gr of Titegroup.
Max load is 4.5gr.
COL for this bullet/powder combo is 1.090"

Note that the SAAMI (manufacturer's association that sets ammo standards)
the max COL for 9mm Luger is 1.169" (per my Lyman manual). In most firearms, the SAAMI max COL is what you really need to pay attention to.

Your situation:

- You've gone as far at 1.050" COL with the Sierra 115gr JHP. You could stay there. You also have room to go longer, in .005" increments. Remember that the longer you go, less of those short 115gr bullets will be seated in the case.

- You are also loading to 3.7gr, the min. load per your Sierra manual. Your manual max is 4.5gr.

Ideas:

I would suggest you continue load development in the following groupings:

5 rds @ 4.0gr
5 rds @ 4.1gr
5 rds @ 4.2gr
5 rds @ 4.3gr
5 rds @ 4.4gr
5 rds @ 4.5gr

Fire those while keeping notes of exactly what happens when the gun hangs up. Work you way up in batches of 5. Watch your primers and case heads for signs of pressure per your manual.

If you have a chronograph, note the speed of each round and see how the average compares to what your manual predicts. Bring a calculator and you should see a fairly even rise in average velocities.

There may be a point where average velocities for 3 successive load groupings remain more or less the same. Take note of those as they often are an indication of a stable and useful load, esp. for competition purposes.

If this does not solve your problem, you can go through this again with different COL lengths, in .005" increments. Or swap out to a lighter recoil spring.

This can take time but the rewards are worth it.

 

[twofifty]

I should add that as you increase or decrease the COL, you are changing how much room the powder has to burn before it starts pushing the bullet out of the case and into the lands.

If you go long, the powder has more room. If you go too long for your HG's particular chamber, you will end up with the bullet starting while engaged in the rifling. This will lead to much higher peak pressures, which is dangerous.

If you go too short, the powder gets compressed and you end up with a dangerous pressure spike.

Going too long also makes unloading a live round difficult as the bullet can get stuck in the rifling...so the case pulls free and you end up with powder in the action. Not good.

Good luck and keep us posted as you carefully work your way to reliability.

 

[rfwobbly]

I'm planning on picking up a few more in addition to this one (Sierra 5th edition) as well as The ABC's of Reloading.

The ABCs has no loads. You may want to get that one from the library.

The manual says that 1.050 should be the C.O.A.L. for the 115 grain JHP...

No sir. You don't understand the book yet. The manual simply reported they used an OAL of 1.050" for their load. In order for you to keep your chamber pressures at or below theirs, you may use any longer OAL between 1.050 (min) and 1.169 (max) that will run in your barrel. Follow ?

Load up a couple of dummy "test rounds" with no powder and no primer. Make 1 at 1.100", another at 1.120", another at 1.130" and another at 1.140". Longer cartridges tend to feed better, but you don't want to go so long that the bullet is unsupported in the case. So drop the 1.140" length test round into the barrel that's been removed from the gun. If the round goes completely into the chamber and will spin freely without catching on anything, that means you can safely use any of the shorter 3. If the 1.140" catches on something, then try the 1.130" test round. And so on. Now you'll have a workable OAL at a reasonable length.

The amount of powder the manual is calling for is 3.7 for it's minimum charge. They've 3 more listings for 4.0, 4.2 and 4.5 grains. Should I move up to the next load of 4.0 or is there something else I'm missing here?

Just because the manual tested at those increments doesn't mean you need to. The min was 3.7gr and the max is 4.5gr. Get from 3.7gr to 4.5gr in small incremental steps. Twofifty's suggestion will work, or try this: 10 at 3.9, 10 at 4.1, 10 at 4.3, etc. In other words steps of 0.2gr.

Now if you are using an OAL longer than 1.050", then the pressure is going to run slightly lower. So there is no need to be alarmed when you get up around 4.3gr or even 4.5gr. Look up "reading pressure signs" here and learn to "read" your spent cases.

Shoot each new group at a new target, all the same distance. You'll see the groups start to tighten up and the slide on your gun start to operate correctly. The lowest load with the best group is your new load.

 

[243winxb]

the slide not locking back

More powder is needed.

 

[LiveLife]

As posted by others, when I test load for a new powder/bullet combination, I load around 10 rounds of each powder charge from just slightly below starting load to just below max load based on the .2-.3 gr increments my Pro Auto Disk will dispense (but will hand weight my initial test loads). Usually, one of pre-determined hole will come close and work, but I use in-between charge disks I made with extra disks for custom loads

115 GR. SPR GDHP Hodgdon Titegroup OAL 1.125" Start 4.5 gr (1135 fps) - Max 4.8 gr (1158 fps)

Hodgdon's website lists 4.5 gr as starting charge and 4.8 gr as max load for 115 gr Gold Dot HP jacketed bullet. Based on the Auto Disk chart, I would make 10 rounds of each at 4.4, 4.7 gr at the indicated OAL of 1.125" (Yes, I am aware that chart is typically on the light side by .1-.2 gr, but I weigh all the test charges to verify. Also, I would test the OAL by manually feeding/chambering from the magazine). I would make additional test loads at 4.5, 4.6 gr (remember, I am hand weighing all the test load charges) and as my routine practice, I would also load test charges at 4.3 and 4.2 gr to possibly identify good accurate plinking loads but only test below starting loads at your own risk.

By taking just below starting to near max load test rounds in one range trip, I can identify the powder charge range I need to be at by noting charges that reliably cycled the slide but produced accurate shot groups. For me, accuracy is everything but if I get the same level of accuracy and reliable cycling between two charges, I will select the lower charge of the two to shoot.

 

[Sunray]

Load for the bullet weight. Who made it doesn't matter.
Check your manual again. The only 3.7 starting load is with Clays. Hodgdon shows a starting load of 4.5, a max load of 4.8 for a 115 grain jacketed bullet and Titegroup. Go up by 1/10th, load 5 of each, keep 'em separate, shoot off a solid rest and change targets for each load.
You will find shooting jacketed bullets gets expensive quickly.
"...for their load..." Manuals use SAAMI specs. They don't invent them.
"...slightly below starting load..." Don't do that. Below starting loads can be just as dangerous as above max loads.

 

[LiveLife]

"...slightly below starting load..." Don't do that. Below starting loads can be just as dangerous as above max loads.

We have discussed this on another thread, but for the sake of "High Road", I have added the warning on my previous post.

as my routine practice, I would also load test charges at 4.3 and 4.2 gr to possibly identify good accurate plinking loads but only test below starting loads at your own risk.

 

[gunghorjc]

So I'm back again. I think I was getting information overloaded from everything and needed to take a few days off.

So I went back to work tonight looking to test the "dummy" rounds that was suggested by rfwobbly.

I made up 4 dummy rounds, 1 at 1.140", 1 at 1.130", 1 at 1.120" and 1 at 1.110". The first one seemed like it was a bit long in the barrel of my Taurus PT 24/7 and Kel-Tec P-11 and the 1.120" seemed to work perfect in both of the barrels. So I re-assembled my guns and tested the "dummy" round loading from the magazine and ejecting.

Keep in mind these rounds had no powder, or primer in them. It worked fine through the Taurus but in the Kel-Tec it won't eject. The slide is locked forward and I'm finding it pretty much impossible to get the round ejected.

Could the firing pin be stuck in the hole that would normally have a primer in it? Also any tips on getting the round out safely would be appreciated.

Also, if I were to do this test again should put a spent primer into the "dummy" round, just not have powder in it?

 

[rfwobbly]

Mr Horjc -
Welcome back.

You're having issues because instructions weren't fully followed. I'm glad you made the test cartridges, but there was more to it....

Load up a couple of dummy "test rounds" with no powder and no primer. Make 1 at 1.100", another at 1.120", another at 1.130" and another at 1.140". Longer cartridges tend to feed better, but you don't want to go so long that the bullet is unsupported in the case. So drop the 1.140" length test round into the barrel that's been removed from the gun. If the round goes completely into the chamber and will spin freely without catching on anything, that means you can safely use any of the shorter 3. If the 1.140" catches on something, then try the 1.130" test round. And so on. Now you'll have a workable OAL at a reasonable length.

Did you drop the test cartridge into the barrel, after the barrel was removed from the gun? Did the cartridge spin freely?

The first one seemed like it was a bit long...

This part is pure science. That is, you can drop the test cartridge in the naked barrel and it will spin or it will not spin. The answer should be 'yes' or 'no'. The answer will be the same tomorrow and next week. That is, the finding are repeatable. "Feelings" are not part of the data collection process.

I'm not jumping on your case here, my friend. Just trying to point out that you're simply trying to measure your chamber, not identify if the barrel is ready to run off and get married.


It's quite reasonable that your 2 pistols have different chamber shapes and dimensions. The test cartridges will help you determine which of the 2 is tighter. Then you can build all your ammo for the "tight chamber gun" and the ammo will run in both. The problem you've created is that the nose of the bullet is most likely jammed into the rifling of the barrel. Luckily this is easy to fix. Drop a 6" length of wooden dowel down the barrel and smack the dowel with a small hammer. The bullet will then dislodge and the slide will open.

This will not harm the barrel or the gun.

Hope this helps!

 

[gunghorjc]

Did you drop the test cartridge into the barrel, after the barrel was removed from the gun? Did the cartridge spin freely?

The first test I did was removed both barrels and dropped the "dummy" round into each barrel. The 1.140" was too tight in both barrels, and they did not spin. The 1.130" spun fine in my Taurus but was still too tight in my Kel-Tec. The 1.120" spun easily in both barrels.

So that's when I re-assembled each gun and put the "dummy" round into the magazine to make sure it would load and eject. Not sure if I should have done this or not. It loaded and ejected fine in my Taurus (which is a full size pistol) but in my Kel-Tec (which is a smaller pistol designed for CC) it racked the round fine but I can't eject it.

I'm not jumping on your case here, my friend. Just trying to point out that you're simply trying to measure your chamber, not identify if the barrel is ready to run off and get married.

It's quite reasonable that your 2 pistols have different chamber shapes and dimensions. The test cartridges will help you determine which of the 2 is tighter. Then you can build all your ammo for the "tight chamber gun" and the ammo will run in both.

I know you're not jumping on my case. I appreciate all the advice and knowledge you're giving.

So with what I said above. The 1.120" O.A.L. was the correct one to use for both pistols, but I shouldn't have put the "dummy" round in the gun. Hopefully I can find a way to safely extract the round without having to send it into Kel-Tec.

One a side note. My father and I wanted to get into reloading as we thought it'd be a great way to shoot for cheaper. I guess we weren't expecting there to be a lot of "work" involved. But if that wasn't the case, everyone would be doing it. Definitely a learning curve, and I may be a bit slow on the uptake but I'm thinking with patience and practice I'll be able to get it down.

 

[k4swb]

One a side note. My father and I wanted to get into reloading as we thought it'd be a great way to shoot for cheaper. I guess we weren't expecting there to be a lot of "work" involved. But if that wasn't the case, everyone would be doing it. Definitely a learning curve, and I may be a bit slow on the uptake but I'm thinking with patience and practice I'll be able to get it down.

Ahhhh grasshopper, now you will begin to learn.

 

[rfwobbly]

Mr Horjc -
Welcome back. Again.

• OK, so the 1.120" spun, but then jammed? You're still too close to the rifling then. You'll need to load at 1.110", which is very common.

• I don't believe you said what the bullet was, but lead and/or conical FP bullets always have more issues. That's why I always recommend Berry RN as your first bullets. Their ogive is wide open and they reload very easily.

• Loading isn't that hard, unless you've got a tight chambered gun (like your KelTec seems to be) and you happen to pick a finicky bullet. Then it can get more involved. That's OK; that's what lab notebooks are for. Just take plenty of notes and next time with this bullet you'll know right off to zoom down to 1.110" OAL.

• Seeing as how the KelTec is an SD gun, you may simply decide not to reload for that gun and just use the Taurus. Oh sure, fire 5 rounds a month to keep yourself familiar with the gun, but do the bulk of your blasting with the Taurus.

All the best!

 

[1KPerDay]

I just want to say this forum rules... I'm learning a lot and I haven't even started reloading yet. Thanks to everyone.

 

[gunghorjc]

It is a great forum. People are very helpful and encouraging.

Anyways, just a quick update. I managed to uncase the "dummy" round from my Kel-Tec by using a wooden dowel and a rubber mallet. So good news there.

I also picked up The ABCs of Reloading 9th edition today. Was flipping through it while waiting to pick someone up from the airport tonight. Lot of good information in that book. I'll definitely start reading it front to back tomorrow. It's got so much information I'm going to have to re-read it several times before I fully ingest everything it has to offer.

Tomorrow I'm planning on finishing off the box of 115 gr. JHP. I'm planning then on picking up some 115 gr. FMJ. Called around to 4-5 different stores and visited a couple of others. Hardly anyone carries FMJ. They're all HP, or XTP bullets. So I'll be ordering some in bulk (like 1,000 should be a good start).

A quick google search told me there are a lot of places to order online. Anyone have good or bad experiences with Midway USA?

 

[rfwobbly]

Mr Horjc -
The biggest recurring complaint about Midway is their shipping price. Lots of places will beat them by $10 just on the shipping.

If bullets is all you want, then check out Zero, Magnus, Precision Delta, Rainier, Berry, Montana Gold, etc. I do not suggest lead bullets for your first reloading experience. Depending on your gun, Hornady XTP and other conical FP can also be a PIA. It all depends on your barrel.

You also don't want to order 1000's of bullets until you KNOW they fit your barrel. Don't ask me how I know this. Magnus and Berry sell in very small batches. Try an assortment. Most modern 9mm are going to shoot and feel better with 124gr. Prove it to yourself.

Have fun.

 

[noylj]

9x19 and .40S&W are VERY sensitive to COL

You want to load to the longest COL that fits in your magazine and feeds and chambers in your gun.
The first thing you should do is load up about three inert (no powder or primer) rounds while you a setting up your dies. These round will be used to establish the COL that works for YOUR gun. At least one of this is stored away with a note regarding the gun it set for, the bullet used, and the COL. When you have to set-up for that bullet again, you use the "dummy" to quickly set the seating stem and the crimp die.

 

[gunghorjc]

Thanks again for the replies. I'm learning that OAL is very important. I've got a couple of notebooks today to keep detailed reports of exaxtly what loads do what, which OAL will fit in each of my 9mm's, what bullet, casing and primer were used etc.

As far as ordering online I'd be buying both bullets and shell casings.