Am I missing something ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

blarby

Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2011
Messages
5,202
Location
Calapooia Oregon
Alright, so in the 32 pounds of gear I got from Midway today were my first bullets for my new 44 Remington Magnum.

As usual, I set everything up, took my measurements, and got down to business.

In my finished rounds, my OAL was jumping from 1.600 to 1.611 !

Check dies, they are fine.

Measure a few more, some are at 1.597... *** ??

So, I measure my Nosler 240gr JHP's...and I find the answer.

They vary in length by the above amounts.

I grab the Hornady 300gr XTP's that came in the same order....they vary anywhere from zero- .006 !


Not what I'm used to, for certain.

Here come the questions :

1. Are they simply not caring about the OAL because these bullets are for revolvers ?

2. As long as these are above the minimum OAL listed for my recipes, I assume i'm safe....if not consistent....... Is this true? Obviously I have the room in the cylinder...some 1/4" at least. I'm at the very end of the load data, if it matters.

3. Am I just being too picky ? I know its thousandths, not tenths...but still... None of my FMJ's in 45 cal have this kind of variance, nor do my .380's....or any of my rifle bullets for that matter.


Does anyone know of a brand that DOES NOT have this problem ?

Please fill me in.... I think I'm missing something.
 
This is confusing to me, being new to reloading myself.

It seems to me that bullet overall length variances should not affect cartridge overall length if the seater plug is adjusted properly.

The only thing I can think of is the seater plug you are using is contacting the bullet on the sides/shoulder and not the nose/end. The die set should have come with two seater plugs, one flat nose and one round nose.

Just a guess, try the other plug and see what happens.

Another thought, could a compressed load cause such variances? I don't know. Maybe someone with more experience will reply.
 
Sounds like a minor variance but just for the sake of your investigation, what kind of reloading press and die setup are you using?
 
The bullet seating plug you are using is contacting the bullet down a ways on the ogive where the contact length is closer to the same with respect to the bullet base. The tip of the bullet with respect to the total length varies a bit but the area inside the round (volume) and the crimp ring location is more consistent that way. If you use a flat seater then you change the internal volume by the amount the bullet length varies and that will change the pressure SLIGHTLY. The amount the length varies with your bullets on the outside will not matter in terms to accuracy . Changing the internal volume will change the pressure thus the accuracy. In your case it will probably be unmeasurable but if it was excessive there could be a problem. Finished rounds that are all the EXACT same length look pretty but the way you are making them produce more accurate ammo even though you may never detect more of that accuracy. In my loading adventures the more I spend on a bullet the more consistent it is with respect to identical shape of it's brothers.:D FWIW handgun ammo works with smaller amounts of volume so a smaller change will effect pressure more than most rifle rounds that have larger internal volumes.
 
Not unusual for bullets to vary in length. I measure the diameter and length of any bullets I use and log it. Some are very consistent, while others are not. I bet you cannot tell on target. :)
 
a couple thousand's on a pistol cartridge i would not worry that much about. It is a whole different story though on a rifle cartridge where it might mean the difference in touching the rifling land's, or having to jump too much to the rifling land's which will give an inconsistent grouping.
 
The variance in length of rifle bullets is insignificant (within reason), and they often vary quite a bit. It is the consistency of the base to the ogive that matters with them.

The variance in your pistol bullets isn't really that bad. Sure, we would like to see it better than that, and some are better, but quit worrying about it, and go out and shoot them. :)
 
Fine, I'll just go fling them to their demise..........

It seriously goes against my grain of perfection, even though I believe that if they dont go under the recipes' OAL I'm not going to be tempting fate with pressure.

Having them vary like factory ammo irks me....

@ taco : I'm using a lee press and dies. Other than the "abrubt stop" that lee mentions in the expander die , they seem to work wonderfully. I am going to be ordering an RCBS expander die to replace this piece....I do not need a powder-through die, let alone one that clunks.
 
Last edited:
Justin Holder said:
It seems to me that bullet overall length variances should not affect cartridge overall length if the seater plug is adjusted properly.
Click to expand...

You are correct Justin.

Blarby, are you seating and crimping in one step? Nosler .44 cal JHPs Have very soft exposed lead tips and are easily deformed sometimes if a heavy crimp is used at the time of seating them. This can lead to differences in COL. I betting even tho your OALs are different, that you are still crimping in the center of the cannelure on every round. If this is true than you still are ending up with the same case volume and you should not experience excessive deviations. Since revolver bullets jump thru the throats, then the Cylinder gap, and then the forcing cone before reaching the rifling, small differences in COL such as yours will have little affect on accuracy.
 
blarby said:
@ taco : I'm using a lee press and dies. Other than the "abrubt stop" that lee mentions in the expander die , they seem to work wonderfully. I am going to be ordering an RCBS expander die to replace this piece....I do not need a powder-through die, let alone one that clunks.
Click to expand...
Try polishing the expander plug. If you are going to discontinue using it, you have little risk.

Others have reported excellent results getting the "clunk" mitigated to an acceptable level or gone entirely while still belling the case mouth properly.


blarby said:
Fine, I'll just go fling them to their demise..........

It seriously goes against my grain of perfection, even though I believe that if they dont go under the recipes' OAL I'm not going to be tempting fate with pressure.

Having them vary like factory ammo irks me....
Click to expand...

Next time you load, measure the bullet length (the bare slug) nose to base, then seat that bullet. Measure the OAL, nose to base of the cartridge and subtract the bullet length from the cartridge OAL. That is the dimension you care about. The free space for the powder to burn between the web of the cartridge and the base of the bullet is the primary factor in pressure variations between cartridges. (Putting aside concerns over the bullet hitting the rifling or not feeding through your action).

Good luck,

Lost Sheep
 
Straight isn't the problem !
Click to expand...
I know, but straight is never bad, and the Lyman two step expander really helps that.

Since you were going to buy an expander, my suggestion was the Lyman.
 
The bullet seating plug you are using is contacting the bullet down a ways on the ogive.
Click to expand...
I'm dubious. I only use Lee dies, but none of the plugs of any 6 of my pistol die sets come anywhere close to contacting the ogive. They all seat on or near the nose. I'm guessing he's using a round nose seating plug, and the tip of the bullet is varying in shape and/or slightly deforming during seating. This does result in some extra variance in internal case volume.
 
Last edited:
^^You might be correct there and the seater plug is hitting near the nose and possibly deforming the bullet. The lower down on the bullet the seater plug makes contact the straighter the bullet and the closer the internal volume will be if the bullets are anywhere near round and squared to the base. At any rate the most accurate pressures will be when the interior volume is as close to the others can be in each round. And as stated most of us will never be able to tell the difference with small variations that normal reloading will produce.:)
 
I actually contacted lee about the seater plug yesterday morning. I'm waiting on 2 more bullet types to show up so I can send 'em off to have custom plugs made. $8 each plus shipping...said they could do 4 at a time per ship.... takes about 8 weeks though. Well worth the wait if it works.

I've noticed it squishes the HP's a little on all brands with the factory plug.... didn't make 'em shorter, but did deform 'em a little.

I also asked 'em about the "chunk chunk" expander die.... said that they dont make one that doesn't...powder through or not. I ordered an RCBS expander die ( they said it does NOT chunk chunk) shoiuld be here in about 4 days. I don't mind having a frankenset of dies.

Would have gone RCBS from the beginning.... but I really do prefer seating and crimping as two separate steps. One large benefit is that if I change bullet types, I don't necessarily have to change both seat depth AND crimp...

Setting up the all in one die is a PIA .... I have to do it every time I try a new bullet in 45 and I HATE it. I love the results of the RCBS taper and seat though ( especially compared to the lee set I almost used for target practice instead of returning) but it takes a lot of minute tweaking with multiple wrenches to get there for me.
 
I have made DIY seater plugs for all my main pistol calibers. I just ordered extra seater plugs and ground them with a drill plus dremel, using the drill as a lathe.

For some I have ground out as big a space as possible, then filled the space with epoxy and pressed a bullet in for a custom plug for a specific bullet. On others, I've actually tried to match the shape of the bullet completely by grinding and gotten a really good fit. I've also made a generic HP plug that has just a small ring of contact as far down the ogive as possible, while clearing space for the nose so it doesn't touch at all (for my 40cal Nosler HPs with their paper thin mouth). Can't really make it anywhere close to the actual shoulder, cuz the seater plug is much smaller in diameter than the bullet! But can get it about a third to halfway there - just enough to clear the nose, really. This seater plug is sorta like a thinned out hollow tube with a chamfered rim. With a heavy crimp while seating, it can leave a faint ring partway down the bullet. But at least the leading edge of the HP doesn't get smooshed.

I haven't ruined a seater plug, yet. It's difficult to make a seater plug that doesn't fit to begin with any worse.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

R
  • Locked
QAL and X-treme 9mm 124 gr HP
Replies
11
Views
3K
RussellC
R
H
  • Locked
Lee bullet seating die isn't giving consistant OAL
Replies
21
Views
5K
243winxb
243winxb
M
  • Locked
Have you guys had this problem with OAL before??
Replies
15
Views
2K
Poodleshooter
P
H
  • Locked
Am I doing Something Wrong?
Replies
7
Views
456
243winxb
243winxb
W
  • Locked
FTF Question - what am I missing?
2
Replies
28
Views
2K
w00dc4ip
W
Back
Top