An observation on ultralight loads...

[Dave McCracken]

And a coupla sidenotes...

Having yesterday off, I headed down to PGC to celebrate the Festival of Freedom in a traditional way, by destroying things loudly. In this case, the things were double trap targets with the Geezer Squad. The guys were glad to see me, since I work most Fridays now it's been a while since I could get there. And the first Friday of each month is trap doubles, so trap doubles it was.

Anyway, I had loaded up some 7/8 oz loads of 8.5s to try at singles, and used these for the first shot. The second was handled by a 1 1/8 oz of 7.5 shot at moderate velocity, an extremely tight shooting load but usable at the 45 yard plus range.

The light loads did their job nicely. The idea on doubles is to take a little chance on the first bird and ambush it fast, then have time to get on the second and obliterate it before it touches ground. Still,the first ones were out a good 30 yards plus when hit. IOW, it'll work for trap singles with a full choke to keep the density up.The 870TB I use has 38 POC, so no problem. Oh yes, the ones I hit, almost all, shattered nicely, little smoke.

Recoil in a 9 lb trap gun was negligible. Downside of course, since nothing comes without a price, is that a bit more choke is needed to keep the pattern together and density up. I may be losing a few inches of spread, but if losing spread worried me that much, I'd have a more open choke anyway. These pattern evenly, BTW, with less core stacking than most.

Less kick, less cost, adequate to excellent performance. I also have some 7/8 oz loads made up for skeet, with a spreader in the shot. I'm really bad at skeet so far, having done so little, but the spreader loads seem to give a decent 25 yd spread out of #6's 40 POC barrel,so chances are if a skeet bird is lost, it's not the load or choke.

Also, for the very first time in over 40 years of pumpgunning, I shortstroked. Guess it had to happen eventually...

 

[HSMITH]

Good info Dave. I have recently developed a load for my SuperX2 3.5" using only 7/8 ounce of shot. Cycles it beautifully, and works great on the skeet field. The pattern is a bit tighter than the tyro would look for but it is a great practice load.

The short stroke could have come with greenheads over the decoys with their landing gear down........... There are worse times to short stroke as well. Keeping things in perspective, yesterday was a great time for it to happen so you will prevent it in the future.

 

[PJR]

Light loads can be suprisingly effective if you heed Dave's advice. Currently in a corner of the basement are 25 flats of 24 gram International shells that came my way at a very good price. They are fast, use premium shot and will reach out and smack targets at a surprising distance. I like at least a light modified choke for them.

They are easier on the shoulder but don't quite smoke the targets in the same way as heavier payloads. You do give up a bit on the fringe of the pattern with lighter loads but chipped, chunked or smoked they all look the same on the scorecard.

Dave, what is the velocity of your loads? The 24 gram International factory loads I have are around 1400fps but the 7/8s ounce handloads I put together for my light game gun are around 1200fps. The handloads are somewhat dense in the core but are easy on the shoulder and on the gun. I prefer my game practice loads this way because once I start regularly centering the targets on the five stand then I know I'm ready to go hunting.

Paul

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks, guys...

Lots of worse times, H. After maybe 50K rounds through pumps, it goes to show one HAS to concentrate on good form. Trap doubles are great places for things to go wrong, no serious downside except on the scorecard. And bad scores hold no new terrors for me(G)...

Paul,the Hogdgon book gives these about 1225 to 1250 FPS. No chrono here, sorry. I could drop one bushing, but there's little to gain and an already tight load would be tighter.

Once my target shotguns have options for less choke, I'd expect something like this for an all purpose 5 stand, skeet and small birds close load, though I'd switch to 8s or 7.5s for critters. That handicap load oughta shine for pass shooting dove and long FITASC type sporting presentations.

Here's the recipe, right from the book.

STS hull.

Win 209 primer.

CB clone of the WAA12SL "Pink" wad.

17.1 gr Clays.

35 lb wad pressure.

7/8 oz hard shot. I use West Coast (6% antimony) 8.5.

Pressures are quite mild.

 

[MbuckH]

I use the exact same shot ounce as you, Dave, and also the same shot, except I use #8's.... I use the same loads for skeet aswell as trap, but haven't had a chance at it with sporting clays yet. I used it for the first time in trap over at stoney creek last week, and it surprised me. The birds would just shatter, but found that useing a tight choke with such little shot, you had to be right on the bird. I am so used to shooting skeet, that I was aiming at the bird the same way as in skeet, which is right on it (field model O/U), but found that I was just shooting right over the bird in trap. So I started aiming below the bird and hit almost every time. Anxious to see how ya do in skeet thursday with your loads, Dave. See ya than.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Kevin, I see this as a candidate for an all around target load. Adding the spreaders means a better pattern at short skeet ranges. Hard shot, low speed and lots of choke mean they'll do the job out to 40 yards on clays.

This whole thread shows the advantage of having a loader and a pattern board. One hull, one primer, one powder,two wads and two shot sizes means target loads for 15 to 40 yards, and hunting loads for long range doves and close up quail, grouse and woodcock, etc.

Haven't figured the cost per box yet, but it has to be down around $2.50 or less.

See ya Thursday....

 

[Dave McCracken]

Just back from PGC, shot two rounds of singles with the 7/8 oz load. 24 and 23/25, I missed the other 3 by shooting over, not the load's fault.

This load IS a KEEPER. Breaks were nice and solid, little chips mostly. Part of the hard hitting HAS to be the short shot string.

Also shot 2 rounds of skeet with #6 and the spreader variant of this. Hit about half, considering I've shot little skeet and had 40 POC in the choke, I'm happy.

This is the fun of a subgauge without having to buy one. Little kick, less noise, less cost.

 

[MbuckH]

Good to hear Dave....Good Shootin'


I am going to give the 7/8's load another shot at the trap range on tuesday evening. They did me good last week, staying in the mid 20's mostly outta 25. Now that I know how the gun shoots in trap, I may do better this week.... I'll let ya know. Later.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Good shooting yourself, MbuckH. I'm re-evaluating these light loads, having started on heavier stuff. I keep telling rookies to use light loads when startign off, I'm going the other way.

See you Thursday....

 

[MbuckH]

I always used heavier loads, previous to this year.....up to 1 1/8 ounce actually. I found that it was just too much for sport shooting (this is just my opinion), unnecessary pounding of the shoulder.....Sometimes would make me flinch or lift my head off the stock resulting in a lost bird. I went sporting clays a few times this year with the boss (bill) and he was shooting Extra light target loads #8's (AA winchesters). I was useing 1 ounce heavy target loads.....He was still hitting them birds at the high distances with these light loads. They weren't crushing the birds, but still a hit. Me on the other hand....I would shatter them when/ if I hit them, but had that high recoil. That recoil had some kinda mental affect on me resulting in lost birds. Ever since I changed to the 7/8 ounce loads, I been getting more dead birds, and dont flinch any longer (still raise my head off the stock sometimes, gotta train mself to stop) due to less recoil. I realize that you have to be right on that bird with that ounce size, if not....lost bird. I feel that the smaller amount of shot helped me be a better shooter, cause it helped me concentrate on that bird harder to get a hit. Just my opinion. Later

 

[Dave McCracken]

Good approach. I use a very tight choke for the same reason at trap, it makes me hold tighter on the bird.

The improvements made in ammo over the last 50 years have made choke less crucial and heavy loads less needed. Since shot are more likely to stay in the pattern due to progressive powders, more antimony, and the wonderful plastic wad, results mimic those of heavy loads in days of yore.

It's not pellets in the shell but pellets in the target that result in broken clays and bagged birds. Modern ammo is truly good stuff.

 

[45auto]

The 24 gram loads I use run around 1300-1325 FPS and hit targets quite hard.
There is less of an effective shot pattern, so there can be "birds" missed that a 1 1/8 would hit... but!

International shooting mandated 24 gram, made it a bit harder, and overall I think it's a good change.
It would be wise for other shotgun sports to do the same. Less shot on the ground, cheaper and less recoil. But the traditional sports are very resistant to any changes.
I believe English Sporting is 1 oz max and FITSAC is eliminating the 1 1/4.
Shot charges will drop, sooner or later I believe.

International allowed 1 1/4 way back when also. Dropped to 1 1/8, 1 oz, and finally 7/8. They did experiment with 20 gauge trap guns, etc, but the 12 produced the best patterns.

Interesting side note: Using a computer reloading calculator, 22 grs of WST, 7/8 hard shot, the cost of the powder, per shell, is higher than the shot cost- wow!!

 

[PJR]

International shooting mandated 24 gram, made it a bit harder, and overall I think it's a good change. It would be wise for other shotgun sports to do the same. But the traditional sports are very resistant to any changes.

It is a good change but the wailing and crying from the members of the ATA would be heard 'round the world.

The fast moving International loads don't smoke targets in the same way as the heavier charges due to pattern density, they do however break them faster. Over the weekend, I shot a very high and long sporting target. With 2-3/4 dram shells there was a perceptible delay between the shot and the target (it was a very long shot). With the 24 gram loads going 250 fps faster, the targets broke faster and harder particularly with 7.5 shot.

The best part was after the first round of 100, I felt good enough to shoot another 100 while other guys who were using heavier loads were shot out.

Paul

 

[45auto]

I agree,
I doubt the best ear plugs would muffle the "wailing" sound from the ATA. Shotguns would be rusting from all the tears shed!!

But, in the long run, they would be better off for it- IMHO.

The speed is a noticable difference in long yardage shots. I know mathmatically, the leads are different, but I never changed my "perceived" leads or shooting style with fast or slow shells. It does make me wonder why I shoot 1300 instead of 1200FPS loads, except the loads I use do not list anything under 1300. But there are others that do.

Pattern testing would be the thing to do, but I have shot some high scores and have good breaks, so I am afraid to pattern the 24 gram at 35+ yards.
They may not look good and I don't want to see how much smaller the effective "killing" circle is from the 1 1/8.

Ignorance can be bliss!

 

[Dave McCracken]

A coupla things...

First, the weeping and gnashing of teeth from the ATA may be annoying, but let a few folks who are AAA(Bonillas, Stafford) let drop that they owe it all to 24 gram loads, and the multitudes would be on the phone to MEC for 24 gram charge bars and lighting up web sites looking for load data.

FYI, I wasn't the only Geezer on that doubles line with 7/8 oz loads. The irrepressible Doug Kelly (one of the nicest guys on earth)has his Spolar spewing them out for his Parker Double Trap and Purdeys. Doug H was busting them hard with a Model 12 and wimpy li'l 7/8 oz loads also. Good scores for all.

Between Friday and Sunday, I ran a case through the TB and #6 at trap doubles, 16 yard singles and a couple rounds of skeet. Except for the 50 1 1/8 oz "Handicap" loads I used for second shots on doubles, they were all 7/8 oz loads.
The heat wrung me out, but no soreness or bruising. While I'm a Manly Man, a couple hundred standard loads fired inside 48 hours while wearing only a T shirt on top may have had uh, consequences....

I doubt I'll take this load any farther, it destroys clays from the 16 yard line, works OK on skeet with the spreader insert, and seems to be close to ideal for a lot of things. Lots of Sporting Clays presentations are under 35 yards. It would make a GREAT starter load for an adult novice just getting into shotguns.

I do have most of a bag of 7 1/2s just sitting there. Maybe developing a 1 oz, 1250 FPS, Mid-Handicap load using most of the same components and 7 1/2 shot is the next research item. Stay tuned...

Oh,yes, if any of the Usual Suspects here copies the load recipe and sends a few through a chrono, I'd really like the know the numbers.TIA.

 

[45auto]

The reach of a 1300 FPS 24 gram will surprise people.
It will break targets out to the 45-50 yard, at least, just a smaller circle so to speak!!

 

[JohnRov]

There's an article in the July issue of Shotgun Sports touting the virtue of lighter loads, specifically 1 oz as opposed to 1 1/8 oz. It contends that pattern density from 1 1/8 oz loads is only 2-3% greater than 1 oz loads. This despite having 10% more pellets (no. 8 shot). Some loads tested had the same density in a 30" circle and all had the same in the 20" circle. I am going to load some 1 oz. loads and pattern them against my 1 1/8 oz loads.

 

[Dave McCracken]

JohnRov, Frank Kodl has been a long time proponent of 1 oz loads. I had read that article and other stuff by Tom Ceretto about lighter ammo.

I was wondering just how far I can take light loads. I've a better idea now.

Basically, these are just the center core of a heavier load, minus flyers. IOW, we have to be ON.


One note, clays have no pain sensors, use of these on live critters demands restraint. Make sure they're in certain range. And I'd use 8s or 7 1/2s.

 

[MbuckH]

Well, I put those 7/8 oz. loads to work again this evening at stoney creek. Did a little trap. Shot four rounds and stayed in the 20's. Actually, lowest score was 20, highest was 23. They did good for me tonight. I even did a little experiment with the round. I was useing a full choke at the 16 yrd. line, and was testing the load by letting the bird get a good ways out before fireing. Even at a long distance, the birds would still crush. I am very surprised with this load. I'm going to do another test round on thursday at the skeet range Later

 

[Dave McCracken]

I'll help you on further testing Thursday. See you then,about 6.