Another Guardian .380 gripe

[HorribleHaggar]

Recently, I read with interest the rather heated thread about the Guardian .380, too bad the moderator had to shut it down before I could talk about my $400 paper weight.
I have experienced all of the same problems that the thread originater had, i.e. stove piping. Mine will always stove pipe the last spent casing which NAA says is perfectly normal. Mine also likes to throw in a stove pipe every once in awhile just to keep you on your toes and it doesn't have to be the last casing anyone does just fine. I cannot accept the manf's statement that this is normal procedure. In my limited experience, I have never heard of a manufacturer of any product, regardless what it is, saying a design defect is perfectly all right and that owners should just learn to live with it. This is especially bad considering the fact that, as we all know, a side arm is used primarily to defend it's owner from harm. Sure a real gun nut would have gone to all the forums and did a search on the Guardian to determine if it was a good choice. Not silly me, I believed their advertising and my local gun dealer. If NAA had put a caveat in red letters in their owner's manual and in their advertising stating that "Guardian .380's stove pipe the last spent casing and that's a normal function of the gun", I for one would not have laid out $400+ for it.
One other thing about my Guardian that bothers me is the rifeling in the barrel. The rifeling is so slight that it is hardly visable, even when using a good bore light, at first glance you would think it was a smooth-bore but after you study it for a while you can see some very slight grooves in there.
I hope that this letter goes into THR's data bank and that a prospective buyer will see this and think twice before buying an NAA Guardian .380, especially considering that for $50 more he could buy a Glock. Oh well, live and learn. I keep my Guardian (with an empty mag and chamber) on top of the pile of paper on my desk, I can't trust it to work as a defense tool, but it does hold the paper down nicely. :banghead: :banghead:

 

[KLR]

Okay - if the gun is stovepiping in the middle of a firing string i.e. first, second, etc. round - send it back for service as it is broken. If it is stovepiping on the last round, that is normal for a gun manufactured without an ejector. The Seecamp can do this (no ejector). The Beretta Tomcat, Jetfire, and Minx can do this (no ejector). The Taurus copies of the Jetfire and Mix can stovepipe on the last round (no ejectors there either). I believe the Autagua can do it too (I don't think it has an ejector).

Most larger autoloaders use an extractor to pull the round out of the chamber and an ejector to flip it out of the ejection port.

For what I sincerely hope will be (but know it wont) the last time: the guns listed above are not equipped with an ejector. I don't know how many times this has to be explained. In order to get a gun that small and thin they leave out an ejector. I find it unacceptable that people can jump on NAA for this "flaw" when most of the major mouse gun manufacturers do not include an ejector and, consequently, stovepipe on the last round.

Now, I had a .32 Guardian that had problems. I sent it back, they repaired it and sent me a spare magazine and pocket holster for my trouble. They have excellent customer service.

 

[Compliantguy]

I owned one of these overpriced paperweights last year. It would constantly stove pipe on the last round as well as other rounds. It didn't matter what type of ammo I tried, either. I believe that it is contributed to the bad design. By that I mean that it doesn't have an ejector. It uses the next round being pushed up from the magazine to push the empty case out with the aid of the extractor. I spoke with someone at NAA and asked why it didn't employ an ejector and they stated that there wasn't enough room on the frame for that type of design. I think that is total bull****, because the Keltec .32 and .380 both use an ejector and extractor and have a heck of allot better track record than the NAAs. And, they are cheaper, weigh less and are narrower! But, if you are like me, I like to customize my handguns, which is why I normally don't favor the polymer frame guns. The NAAs are awesome looking pocket guns, but not worth squat if they aren't reliable. I recommend that you send it back to them and insist that they give you a new one (although I wouldn't hold my breath). When, and if, you get the new one, I would sell it. Just my 2 cents....

 

[Gary A]

Some years ago I had a Seecamp .32. It usually stovepiped the last case. Articles on the Seecamp invariably pointed out that characteristic and, if I remember correctly, the owners manual may have mentioned it also. It was due to a lack of an ejector and relying on the next round in the magazine to push the empty out. It worked fine. I have a Guardian .32. Ditto. I have a Guardian 380. Ditto. I knew what I was getting. Both the NAA 32 and 380 perform flawlessly, at least so far. If they did something else, I would return them to NAA. Lack of an ejector may not be the ideal design to please everyone but it is not a defect. I used to have a Beretta 950 Jetfire. It had an ejector but no extractor, relying on the pressure of the fired round to blow the case from the chamber. If there was a misfire, it was necessary to tip up the barrel in order to remove the dud round, racking the slide would do nothing. That also was not a "defect" although one might call it a shortcoming of the design. Little guns often give up something to be what they are. A lot of the short-barrelled "shopkeeper" sixguns in the nineteenth century lacked ejector rods. Empty the cylinder and remove it and pop the empties out with a stick. A shortcoming but not a defect. I think this is much ado about nothing. If the design does not appeal to someone, it is a simple matter to buy a design which does. What's the problem? Way too much "outrage" floating around the world today. Just MO.

 

[KLR]

Gary A- I stand corrected. You are right, the Beretta series do not have extractors vice ejectors. That is why the round doesn't pop out when you rack the slide on one of their mouse guns. I knew it was something like that. Bottom line, Autauga, Seecamp, and NAA do not include an ejector.

This makes about as much sense as criticizing Sig-Sauer for making the 220 through 245 without manual safeties or for making the 232 with a heel-magazine release and without a slide stop.

 

[HorribleHaggar]

I notice that no one has addressed the rifleing issue, is mine the only Guardian .380 out there with minimal rifleing?
Please understand that I don't want to start a flame war over this, I simply want others, who like I, are not as knowledgable about guns as most of you are. In all honesty, if I had previous knowledge of the ejector/ extractor issue in this and other firearms, I would not have bought either one. A customer with only a basic knowledge of firearms who walks into a gun shop wanting a small, reliable, easy to operate self defense handgun should be made aware of things such as the Guardian's method of clearing spent casings. He shouldn't have to go to a search engine on a gun forum to learn what should be addressed, up front, by the manufacturer.
KLR- I apologize if you have had to explain the extractor/ejector problem over and over. I'm new to this forum and haven't noticed this subject being broached before. You find it unacceptable that a neophite gun owner finds fault with NAA for producing a product that is of an antique design that may have outlived it's usefulness. As others have said, Kel-Tec can produce a much smaller, lighter pistol that has an ejector at about half the price of a Guardian, why can't NAA? You might say, well why didn't you buy a Kel-Tec? My answer to that is simple, I was drawn to the way the Guardian felt and looked. The all stainless construction was another major selling point. At no time did the salesman make mention of the extractor/ejector problem and neither was it addressed in the owner's manual that came from NAA with the Guardian. It seems as tho it was purposely not mentioned so that the owner had to learn the hard way. The explanation on the FAQ section of the NAA website is rather rude and abrupt and as much as told the customer that he should get used to it and not to bother them with the problem. This to me should wave a caution flag to potential buyers and I hope it does.
Just curious, how did the Colt Ponies and Mustangs clear their last spent cartridges and did they have a stove-pipe issue? They were about the same size as the Guardian. Wish Colt still made them.

 

[KLR]

Actually, I this is my first foray into the topic. A retired USN Master Chief Petty Officer and some other board denizens most recently got into a very heated discussion over the topic (moderator locked the thread after it degenerated into personal attacks).

No one is attempting to take anything away from the Kel-Tec for it's attributes. I personally have had two very bad experiences with Kel-Tec (a P11 and P32) and will (probably) never buy another one. I guess what we (the "stovepipe isn't a big deal crowd") are saying is that in the unlikely event that you have to reload, the stovepipe will most likely clear itself. The NAA et. al. are deep cover guns not primary defensive sidearms (although they are frequently carried as such)

I have to reiterate, however, that if the gun is stovepiping at any other time than the last round it needs to be fixed.

I believe that the Colt Pony (which I think is considerably bigger - perception) bought the rights to use the offset ramp/recoil rod from Kahr. Either that or they stole it. Or bought it after stealing it. Something like that. I think (emphasis on think) that both the Pony and Mustang have both ejectors and extractors.

Look- I decided against a Sig P-232 as an off-duty weapon because it lacks a slide stop. Most people would point out that all you have to do to lock the slide back is insert an empty magazine and retract the slide. Fine, but if you have a double feed malfunction, my agency teaches you to lock the slide to the rear, rip out the magazine, work the slide etc. etc. A double feed (or any malfunction for that matter) is highly unlikely in a Sig. I still like having the slide stop available. Is that a defect in the weapon? I think not. That is all we are saying.

If you don't like the Guardian because of inherent design attributes - Great! A lot of people hate Glocks because they are polymer. To say that polymer is a "defect" would be a little extreme.

Having said that, I have found my Kahr PM-9 to be as small as I need. I have no trouble carrying it in shorts and a T-shirt.

Also - welcome to the board. I have only been here a short time myself.

 

[HogRider]

Funny ... I have a 380 Guardian and after the initial break in period ( yes there where some feed failures and stove pipes for the first 50 or 60 rounds and the ammo I had used was crap too) the gun has performed flawlessly. I have had no issues whatsoever in 150 rounds. And I bet I am not going to have any in the next 150.

I am very happy with this little gun and it is as reliable as any other 380 I have ever fired! I also know several other people who have an NAA Guardian in 32 and 380 and none of them have any problems either.

Actually the first time I have ever heard that there were any "Issues" with this gun was a few days ago when all the NAA bashing started.

 

[KLR]

HogRider - I saw a post on general handguns where one of the anti-NAA guys was trying to locate another board dealing with NAA products. Apparently wasn't getting the answers he/she was looking for over here and was looking for a board that might share his outrage.

 

[HogRider]

I know, I actually replied to that thread too.

The only reason why I have posted in this thread here is, because if somebody who is looking into buying this gun reads this, he/she will think the NAA Guardian is a complete piece of crap, and that is absolutely not true. There a always lemons. I think this is a great gun and the problems mentioned are not the norm.

 

[KLR]

Yeah. I am very picky about my carry weapons. It doesn't take much to make me not trust a weapon. I have sent back NAA and Kahr products, but when they came back - they were perfect. I have no qualms about carrying the Guardian. The Guardian crusade seems really immature for all the reasons I have listed previously.

 

[Compliantguy]

I must say that there are many good points made in this post. I think that NAA makes great mini-revolvers (I own 3), but I personally had problems with a .32 and .380 Guardian, which was a stovepiping problem on both guns. Most people get lucky with their purchases, but others have to deal with the problems; Luck of the Draw I guess. (And this can happen with any gun that is available.) I will mention, though, that the quality and feel of the Guardian's construction is superb, but I do agree with HorribleHaggar in that a person should not have to go to a Forum to find out a feeding problem that the manufacturer claims is normal. Just my 2 cents....

Haggar....I think that KLR makes a good point about the KAHR PM-9; it is a great pocket gun in a very substantial caliber, especially with the 9mm ammo available these days. I own a PM-9 and have had no problems to speak of. Also, it is a very accurate little lightweight pocket gun.

 

[No Quarter]

First tip for all the buyers out there that are too lazy to research a purchase before they buy something:

AT LEAST GO TO THE MANUFACTURER'S WEBSITE AND SEE WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THE GUN YOU ARE BUYING!

See this link:
http://naaminis.com/naagdfaq.html

It discusses COMMONLY ASKED QUESTIONS about the gun! There is also a forum at NAAMINIS.COM that is chock full of discussions. The last round stovepipe issue is addressed in the FAQ link above!!!!

I would venture to say that NAA is more up front about their guns than most other manufacturers!

I love my Guardian .380. IMO, it is an heirloom quality gun. It is beautifully made and seems as though it will last a lifetime (Even if it does not, NAA will fix it and keep it running anyway).

Mine is accurate and relliable. I carry it everyday and can EASILY pass the TX CHL course with mine.

A quick call to NAA will get the process of getting your gun working right. They will either know how to resolve the rpblem with a quick parts swap, or assk you to send your gun in for repair. Either way, they stand by their products 100%.

The LAST spent casing stovepiping IS NOT a PROBLEM! It causses you no stoppage of fire, is resolved by either pulling the slide back and letting the case fall out and then putting your gun back in the box after your range session OR inserting a fresh magazine and racking the slide to chamber a round and then continue to fire - (Both of which actions, you would have to perform anyway with or without the stovepipe).

So - IMO I find NAA Guardians to be terrific little pocket guns for those that do not like plastic. A quick use of the search function on this forum or any other forum will prvide you with hours of reading on these guns.

I would hate for a new potential buyer to read these last few days of posts about this gun and get the improper implication that they are not great guns. A little due diligence on the part of a new buyer seems liek it is in order! (Search the gun forums and do a little googloing would have prevented most of these tirades in the first place)

NQ

 

[KLR]

No Quarter - I don't fault anyone for not knowing about the lack of an ejector ahead of time. Very few people do a lot of research before buying a gun (general public, that is). On the other hand, I do so much research and waffle back and forth that my wife finally tells me to just go buy the thing (Pretty cool plan, huh?). I just have a problem with someone looking at a deliberate design concept and calling it a "defect".

Another case in point, just got a Walther P-22. I really, really, don't like the fact that it has a zinc alloy slide. I would love it if someone were to manufacture aftermarket slides made out of aluminum like the ciener .22 conversion kits are.

How many other defects are out there?
Browning HP - "hammer bite"
Walther PPK - "slide bite"
Beretta Mouse guns - no ejector
Sig Sauer Pistols - no manual safety
Colt SAA - no safety, must be carried w/five rounds (original ones, that is)
Most Shotguns - no firing pin safety
SKS - safety only blocks the trigger

etc.
etc.

No one is on here demanding changes for those guns.

 

[HorribleHaggar]

Gentlemen, I can assure you that I am not "immature"," lazy" or launching a "trirade" as some of you seem to point to. I think I am an average person who was willing to spend $449.00 plus tax on a personal defense handgun. Not being a gun hobbiest or tinkerer, I bought this gun on the recommendation of the gun salesman in the sporting goods shop. I paid quite a bit of money for a product that I thought was superior to the other handguns in that price range. It felt solidly built, simple to operate and the size was exactly what I was looking for. Yes lemons occur throughout every aspect of manufacturing, even Toyota Pick Up trucks have rare problems. It would appear that I just happened to get a bad Guardian. And, yes I will be sending it back to NAA for repair. Although it is sad that a new $449 pistol has to go back to the factory right out of the box, I can understand that happening to a cheaper gun but not one as expensive as the NAA.
My intent here was not to "bash" NAA nor enter into a "crusade", my points have been clearly outlined in my previous postings in this thread. I simply feel that anyone doing the research that you gentlemen referred to, have a right to read dissenting opinions as well as the majority of positive opinions. The buying public has a right to know if a product has quirks and based upon that knowledge can make an intelligent decision about the product they are about to purchase. Had I known that forums such as this exsisted and that NAA had an informative website, I can assure you that I would have done the research and that I would have made a decision not to buy the NAA.

 

[KLR]

The immature comment was referring to someone else in a couple of other NAA threads. I cannot address the lazy or tirade ones. I think you came in on the coattails of two other NAA threads - one that got nasty, and one that showed that someone doesn't want to let the issue die and is looking to carry the fight elsewhere. You just had the misfortune to bring the issue up again.

I agree about paying a lot of money for a gun and it should be perfect. I have sent back a NAA Guardian (replaced), a Kahr MK-9 (replaced), and two Kel-Tecs (used the money for something else). Again, if the gun is broken then, absolutely, it needs to be fixed. The lack of an ejector is not a design flaw that needs fixing.

Now, let us take a short trip in the wayback machine. In your first post you wrote:
"I hope that this letter goes into THR's data bank and that a prospective buyer will see this and think twice before buying an NAA Guardian .380, especially considering that for $50 more he could buy a Glock. Oh well, live and learn. I keep my Guardian (with an empty mag and chamber) on top of the pile of paper on my desk, I can't trust it to work as a defense tool, but it does hold the paper down nicely".

As stated in several Westerns: "Them's fightin words". We (justifiably, I might add) considered that inflammatory language and were ready for another design flaw thread. You stated quite clearly that you were out to keep people from buying the NAA .380 because of what you interpreted to be a design flaw. That sounds suspiciously like bashing NAA and sounds an awful lot like the start of a crusade.

Put another way:
The lack of side curtain airbags in a car is a design choice
The exploding gas tank in a Ford Pinto is a design flaw

If you don't like a gun's design say so. I cannot tell you what to do, but you probably should refrain from trying to steer people away from the "paperweight" as you dubbed it.

 

[KahrKarrier]

Hi Y'all, just saw my favorite handgun mentioned so I thought I'd wade into these muddyed waters a little bit. I own four Kahrs, K9, K40, K40 Covert and a MK40Elite. All of these Kahrs are total stainless and run with nary a hiccup. Guess what? I also own an NAA Guardian .380. I feel HORRIBLE,s pain because mine will stove pipe Cor-Bons almost everytime but runs like a clock on Win Silvertip HP's, go figure. I've polished the feed ramp smoothed up every thing I could find inside (not much inside) but she still barfs her Cor-Bons, simple solution, right? Don't use Cor-Bons. I love my little Guardian because she fits into the watch pocket of my Levis and disappears under a "T" shirt, no need for a holster. When summer comes, I cut the legs off the Levis and carry my little Guardian in the watch pocket all summer. With a sheet of 600 grit wet or dry sandpaper and my Dremel tool, I polished the whole dang gun, she looks like a Texas BBQ gun now. Almost as good as my Kahr MK40 Elite but not quite.
I can understand some of what 'ol Horrible is trying to say but if the thing won't kick out the final casing and that pisses him off, he has a right to complain, that's what makes the USA so great. Maybe he should consider selling it and buying an all stainless Kahr, I don't think they got all the bugs worked out of the polymer models yet. That's just my opinion, to which I am entitled. ------------------ JED

 

[Mal H]

HorribleHaggar - To address your question about the rifleing on the NAA .380, I think the way to answer it is to ask if you are getting any keyholing from bullets fired from it? I'll wager the answer is no. Looking inside my NAA .380, the lands do look almost non-existent. The reason is that they may indeed be a little less in height than what you are used to and NAA polishes their lands and grooves to a fine shine. A good convincing test is to: first unload the gun then run a pencil, straight pin, toothpick, etc. around the inside of the barrel at the muzzle end. I think you'll find that the lands are a lot more substantial than they look. But, as I said at the beginning, the proof is in the firing.