Anti-gun propaganda in 'The Times'

[Stoker]

On Oct 18, 'The Times' published a long,well-written anti-gun article by Richard North Patterson. You can read it at

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2720-856844,00.html

Before I write to the Editor asking that a balancing article be published, I would like to know if any of Patterson's more tendentious statistics can be refuted. In particular, can anyone comment on the following statements (all of which appear in the article)?

1. Since the day JFK was murdered more Americans have died from gunshot wounds than died in all the wars in the 20th century.

2. Every year, guns kill almost 30,000 Americans.

3. Every day 12 children die in murders, suicides and accidents involving guns.

4. 90% of Americans favour banning assault weapons.

5. 80% of Americans favour reasonable regulation of handguns.

Some members may recall that a few weeks ago I attempted to explain why Europeans generally have a different approach to firearms from many Americans and to defend their view. This article by Patterson represents the opposite end of the range of US opinion and one I must oppose as firmly as I defend our general approach of reasonable controls.

USA law on firearms is a matter for the people of the USA and nothing to do with me. Similarly, UK law is nothing to do with Patterson and I can only regard his article as an undesirable contribution to our domestic debate.

 

[greyhound]

80% of Americans favour reasonable regulation of handguns.

I am not so sure that this one is not true. Depends a lot on what the definition of "reasonable" is. Remember that most Americans are neither pro nor anti gun/self defense.

I would guess that even among THRs, certain regulations (such as felons can't own guns) might be favored by a majority (how slim a majority I don't know).

 

[TarpleyG]

Every day 12 children die in murders, suicides and accidents involving guns

Although I do not have the stats in front of me (but they are here somewhere. do a search) you will be suprised to see this often-misquoted number includes gang shootings and also includes 18 year old MEN.

 

[Illuminate]

As well, suicides are completely irrelevant.

 

[MagKnightX]

I suppose I'm one of the eighty percent; I favor reasonable regulation of handguns! It goes a little bit like: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, Shall not be infringed.

Catchy, huh? Maybe we could get this put into the US code or something?

And for the "twelve children every day," yes, I suppose, if you consider the fact that everybody's somebody's child.

For the "thirty-thousand" stat: Jeez, these guys aren't even consistent! Even Michael Moore said it was about twelve-thousand.

 

[Mark Tyson]

Suicides are indeed irrelevant. Just look at the Japanese situation. Ill take my chances here.

 

[MaterDei]

2. Every year, guns kill almost 30,000 Americans.

All of these stats are not about guns, they are about people. Guns don't kill, people kill. The problem is with the people, not with the guns.

I would also suggest that you use UK stats on gun violence since the ban on handguns was implemented. Don't let them compare apples to oranges. The US and the UK are two different countries with different cultures and legal systems. If they insist on comparing the UK with another country why don't you throw out Swiss statistics. I don't have the specific numbers but the Swiss have a high percentage of gun ownership and very low violence committed with guns statistics. If you point this out they should agree that these statistics reflect positively or negatively on the people, not on guns.

This should help to direct the debate to where it should be, which is, what is it about American or British societal values and their legal systems that cause people to resort to violence so frequently. The answers to those questions are much harder to come by but at least you've directed the debate away from the red herring (guns) that they want to focus the debate on.

Cheers,

MaterDei

 

[Waitone]

Stoker, your question comes up on a periodic basis and is likewise answered.

I suggest running a search on THR and its parent thefiringline.com . Statistics are easy to sling around particularly if the author has no qualms of creating his own statistics.

Over at keepandbeararms.com is a PDF that compiles lots of statistics and counters for those statistics. Its called Gunfacts v3.2 IIRC. Gunfacts is a good source since it contains primary source documentation in each section. Some of the questions you ask are answered headon.

I'm not putting you off. Just letting you know a lot of work in this area has already be done.

Good luck to you. Keep us posted.

 

[Glock_PhD]

This does not exactly answer your question but you can just go to the CDC website. www.cdc.gov as they track the number of deaths for many things. Through this form you can search the leading causes of death. http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus10.html

 

[Fudgie Ghost]

Regarding the "children" statistic--IIRC, those numbers include not only suicdes, but also those killed by police and civilians acting in self-defense, as well as "children" shot in the commission of a crime, i.e. 15, 16, 17, 18 year olds shot during muggings, assaults on other criminals, idiotic "drive-bys" from being "disrepected", etc. (lots of this in the lower-level drug world), etc.

Ask what is the definition of a "child"? Someone under 21, 18? How do you feel about a hulking 18 year old drug dealer, hardened from years on the streets and in "juvenile" facilities being referred to as a "child"?

Believe me, the numbers that are required to produce such a statistic are not limited to what comes to mind when you and I think of as "children". The professor and author (Gary?) Kleck is a good reference for this. Find his writings at www.nationalreview.com.

Attack, don't defend.

 

[iamkris]

Stoker...

As mentioned above, this question has come up and is answered. Do a search on "anti with questions". There was a thread here this summer that had some of the most eloquent writing I've ever seen on this board.

Additionally, read the Gun Facts document here: www.keepandbeararms.com/images/gunfacts.pdf
It has good statistics and counter points to those who use statistics to call for gun control.

Finally, don't fall into the trap that the anti's use...namely the argument about "reasonable" gun control. That is subjective. Reasonable to a liberal is not reasonable to a conservative.

Finally, I do understand that Europeans grew up under different cultures that we in the US did. While a stereotype, generally Euros grew up in societies where a monarchy / dictator / leader kept their subjects under their thumb. Only the aristocracy had the right to defend themselves. Only the upper class had the right of defense and property. While those ways have passed, the culture that they created have not and people do not (in general) prize a sense of self-reliance and determination in the same way as Americans (flame suit on as I know people will have tons of counterpoints to this).

Americans grew up under a very different viewpoint...we are our ultimate masters and can decide our own fate. The natural right of self determination and destiny is inherent. I personally am distressed at those in the US that seems to be willing to give up that history to pursue the falacy that "others" can take care of us better than we can. Almost by definition, no government can take care of the individual better than that individual. Governments can at best protect societies which means that individuals naturally are "sacrificed" for what passes as the "good of the whole".

Thanks, but that's not somthing that I'll choose to live under.

 

[Baba Louie]

Taken from the first link below...

The world has never been completely free from the scourge of war, but no period in all of history has witnessed the escalation of wars as has the 20th century. The International Red Cross estimates that over 100 million people have been killed in wars since this century began.
Prior to 1914, war had never been universal, but in both World War I and II, global war was waged. In the latter, only 12 small nations of the earth were not militarily or technically involved, and 93 million people served in the armed forces of both sides. Of these, 25 million died. Civilian casualties were unprecedented: In the Soviet Union alone, over 20 million civilians died as a result of the war.
Since WWII, which was supposed to be “the war to end all wars,†there have been over 150 major wars (conflicts resulting in over 1,000 deaths a year), as well as hundreds of smaller conflicts, armed rebellions and revolutions. The death toll in armed conflicts since the end of WWII is more than 23,142,000 people. (AP, 10 Nov 1993)

http://www.countdown.org/futureforetold/war/war.htm

Sounds like the usual Brady stuff...
http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.asp?Record=289

Fascinating but ghastly reading...
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstats.htm

30,000, 35,000 sounds about right. Lets see 280,000,000 into 35,000 is what... .000125 percentile. Still a lot of funerals tho. How many people die each year anyway due to other causes? Driving accidents, Drinking, Heart disease... you get the picture. No one gets out of here alive.

12 kids daily is 365 x 12 = 4,380. OK, drug dealing gang fights, criminal kids killed by Cops, suicides, even a few accidents... What was the child mortality rate last time anyone checked? Kinda cold blooded, but my G/F's grandmother only had 7 or her 15 children live past the age of two.

90% and 80% favoring gun control of one form or another... What were the specific questions (were they leading?) and from whence did he get his source... Methinks HCI/Brady is being quoted again... and they would never ask leading questions... just like the NRA wouldn't ask leading questions in a survey poll, now would they?

Stoker, you can write a refuting POV but the reality is everyone knows that guns in the wrong hands can and will be used in evil ways. However, if 80,000,000 +/- Americans own some 200,000,000 firearms, obviously some of us have our responsible selves under control and aren't running amuck.

Kinda like the old 43 X more likely to be killed by your gun blather factor quote... If it were true, you and all of your UK friends could come over here to a continent that would be basically unpopulated because we'd all be dead at our own hands by our own firearms.

Let us know what you write please and any response you may get to it.

Adios

 

[ny32182]

You can also note the fact that violent crime in your own country has skyrocketed since the implementation of your gun bans. I believe gun crimes in the UK went up 35% just last year or something like that? I don't remember the source though.

 

[Jeff OTMG]

1. Since the day JFK was murdered more Americans have died from gunshot wounds than died in all the wars in the 20th century.

I doubt it. Since 11/22/63, 40 years, at 30k deaths per year (which it was not that high in the 1960's), plus 55k in Vietnam, plus other assorted military actions since then, we are looking at well under 2 million American deaths, probably less than 1 million, due to guns and that is including deaths due to war and suicide. I believe that 5 -6 million Russians were killed in WWII during the battle of St Petersburg. If they are talking about only Americans dying in wars, that could be as we have lost well under 1 million in military action during the last 100 years. More Americans died in the Civil War in 4 years than died in all military actions in the 20 century, so what is the point? We don't have very many people die in wars, relatively speaking.

2. Every year, guns kill almost 30,000 Americans.

No, people USE kills to kill themselves. This is an attempt to skew numbers using suicide statistics. Roughly 20,000 of those deaths are suicides, the rest are homicides including justifiable homicides. If they are trying to show a causal effect of guns on homicides it can't be done. In Japan, a country of virtually zero firearms, they have the same number of suicides as we do, BUT WITH HALF THE POPULATION giving them a suicide rate double that of ours.

3. Every day 12 children die in murders, suicides and accidents involving guns.

That is 4380 deaths per year. If you go to the CDC cause of death page, it will show that deaths are less than that for 'children'. Now, if you include a 17 year old gang banger who would be tried as an adult the number could be that high. The problem is that they lump a 7 year old suburban kid in with 16-17 year old, or older, at risk inner city youth and claim guns are the problem and ignore all other causes.

4. 90% of Americans favour banning assault weapons.

That would depend on how a survey question was asked. "Do you favor banning the possession of assault weapons by convicted murderers?"

5. 80% of Americans favour reasonable regulation of handguns.

I sure do. I agree with aspects of the GCA '68, like reqiring a unique serial number to be on each firearm.

 

[DMK]

2. Every year, guns kill almost 30,000 Americans.

Every year, over 40,000 americans are killed by automobiles and 70,000 are killed by air pollution. Americans have something like 12,000 heart attacks a month. 500,000 to 700,000 Americans die annually from heart disease.

Perhaps the Times should recommend banning cheesebugers and automobiles?


sources:

http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus10.html

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4478

http://csf.colorado.edu/envtecsoc/2002/msg00543.html

 

[morganm01]

90% of Americans don't know what an "assault weapon" is.