Anybody Ever Load 38 S&W Cartridges?

[Foto Joe]

My bullets arrived today via USPS so I figured I'd load up a dozen rounds to go play with Saturday afternoon. Since my sole experience in reloading cartridges is 45LC in both smokeless and now Black Powder I figured I'm pretty close to bein' an expert by now...NOT!!!

Here's what I've picked up so far from pretty much this forum:

What I've been told: 38 S&W should load about 15gr 3f
What I found out tonite: Only if you're only going to put powder in them and skip the bullet part.:banghead:

Even compressing the powder through my own makeshift contraption (I don't have a 38 compression plug yet) about ten grains is all I'm gettin' in the brass with enough room to reasonably seat a 145gr bullet and this is using a 24" drop tube. Does this sound reasonable?

Being someone used to shooting a 45LC or Dragoon 10gr seems a little on the light side. Even my brass Navy loads with 16gr. I'm assuming that 10gr will probably get the bullet out of the barrel but does anybody have any idea what kind of performance I might expect from this load??

I'd like to use this little H&R for a carry gun, but if I ever have to use it I'd rather not just make somebody mad. Could this possibly be the reason that 38 S&W isn't used much anymore??

 

[Oyeboten]

Image of a Bullet, seen next to a Cartridge Case?

 

[TheRodDoc]

Foto Joe,

A ten grain black powder measure would be close to right.

They used to use a 12 to 15 grain measure when the guns were made but those cases were the thin ballon type, open around the primer pocket on inside.
The cases today will only hold about what you found.

 

[the Black Spot]

if you want to skip the black, you might try bullseye smokeless powde, NOT 10 grains, more like 2.5 or 3.

 

[Tomahawk674]

What if you stuff it with 777? that is still not smokeless, but should give you an extra kick.

 

[batjka]

Try this page:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/98749-38-s-w-load-devopment-pt-1-a.html

While it doesn't show black powder loads, it has a wealth of ballistic data on .38 S&W.

 

[Foto Joe]

if you want to skip the black, you might try bullseye smokeless powde, NOT 10 grains, more like 2.5 or 3.

I'm not really technically a purist I suppose but I've gotten to the point in my life where I've gained A LOT of respect for the folks to designed and developed mid to late 19th century firearms. This being said, 38 S&W was originally developed circa 1876 to be used with Black Powder, thus the size of the case in the first place, much like 45LC etc.

It's because of that I'm sticking to the original propellant.

After reading the load data for 45LC which I'm familiar with loading, the 10gr of BP in 38 S&W does look about right. My unscientific observation was that BP appears to load about 3 to 3.5 times as much weight as the average smokeless round. Like I said: Unscientific

After loading a dozen of these last nite I think I might just turn back the powder just a little more to get a better bullet seat too.

 

[batjka]

Foto Joe,

If you have access to a chronograph, it would really be great if you can post the results. I couldn't find much data on BP loads for .38 S&W

 

[Tomahawk674]

I thought Oyeboten was our official BP cartridge tester

 

[44-henry]

Just curious, but why would you want to use that for a carry gun? I've loaded the 38 S&W with BP before which I shot out of an Enfield; however, it doesn't exactly set the world on fire ballistically. It is an interesting cartridge, and one that is fun to play around with, but realistically, there are much better choices out there for self defense.

 

[bubba15301]

about 600fps

 

[Oyeboten]

Well, Dog-Gone-it, Dad-Nabit, Gosh-dangit, Goll-Dernit, if I can fit it in to-night, I will Load some up.


I kept procrastinating for want of right diameter Bullets, and or, of a Sizing Die which would allow me to bump them up.


I will just load some 148 Grain HBWCs, over all the Hard-Compressed BP, that I can fit under them, for the Cylinder to still be able to turn.


Was thinking to head out to the Range to-morrow, Weather permitting...anyway...so...goos a time as any to finally break the ice!


M-a-y-b-e...


Mr. Chrono would be in attendance, of course.

 

[Foto Joe]

Just curious, but why would you want to use that for a carry gun? I've loaded the 38 S&W with BP before which I shot out of an Enfield; however, it doesn't exactly set the world on fire ballistically. It is an interesting cartridge, and one that is fun to play around with, but realistically, there are much better choices out there for self defense.

Good question. Here's my person opinion:
Compact, Simple, Deadly Accurate Close In and...Good Enough for Law Enforcement for decades. Other things I find attractive about it are that a 19th Century H&R is much easier to carry than a Peacemaker with a 12"bbl or a Dragoon but an 1862 Police would probably carry a little more punch. Lastly, I have been referred to as eccentric on more than one occasion.

Oyeboten
Post those chrono numbers will ya!!! Judging from the load data for smokeless on this round 600-1000fps is around the right numbers for modern propellent. I'm bettin' that BP might just beat that.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Foto Joe,



I apologise...I pooped out last night, after loading a few .45 Colt Cartridges, and was not able to get onto the .38 S & W as I had hoped.

"Soon" though...


I do not think we can hope for 1000 FPS with 140-odd Grain Bullets in our small Frame Break-Tops...at least not if the Revolver is to continue to have a long Life anyway.

But, mid "Sixes", seems probable...mid 'Sevens' even if a longer Barrel Model.


Those having K-Frame S & W Revolvers, or Colts, originally slated for the English or UK or other like Chambering Nations' use in WWI or WWII or in-between, could get away with much more powerful Loadings than we can.

I have seen Ruger DA Revolvers originally chambered for the .38 S & W ( Singapore was it? ), and I imagine those Revolvers would be quite stout.



I did get my re-Loading stuff mostly set up again, so, maybe to-night, maybe to-morrow.


I will do some BP, and, "777".


I have some old FactoryAmmunition also, to try for comparison.

 

[44-henry]

I remember reading that Rex Applegate had a close encounter with a S&W lemon Squeezer in 38 S&W in which he shot an assailant five times with somewhat dismal results. On one hand he survived the encounter, but I hear that it led to him carrying a 38 Special following the event so that doesn't say much for his opinon of the cartridge in the long run. Though I never heard odds are he wasn't using black powder in his sidearm, more likely one of the hot 38/200 variants.

Certainly it would be a poke in the eye with the proverbial sharp stick, but if it was my skin on the line and you wanted to stay traditional I would stick with a 45 Colt which, with a full BP load, does put most modern self defense arms to shame.

 

[Old Fuff]

I remember reading that Rex Applegate had a close encounter with a S&W lemon Squeezer in 38 S&W in which he shot an assailant five times with somewhat dismal results. On one hand he survived the encounter, but I hear that it led to him carrying a 38 Special following the event so that doesn't say much for his opinon of the cartridge in the long run. Though I never heard odds are he wasn't using black powder in his sidearm, more likely one of the hot 38/200 variants.

Well for the rest of that story...

The incident happened in Mexico. Rex was carrrying one of his favorite .38 Safety Hammerless (top-break) revolvers that was chambered in .38 S&W, and unfortunately only had a 2" barrel. Usual standard was 3 1/2 inches or longer. No, he wasn't using an extra-hot load and with the short barrel the 145 grain bullet was probably going around 600 FPS or less. The assailant was running toward him and all five shots hit center-of-mass, but failed to stop the action. At this point a Mexican officer let go with one of Colt's big .45 pistols, and that brought things to an end in quick order.

Applegate gave this matter some serious thought, and then approached S&W President Carl Hellstrom with a STRONG suggestion that the company should consider making a revolver based on their new J-frame .38 Special, Chief Special (pre-model 36) but with the enclosed hammer and grip safety featured on the much older Safety Hammerless.

Well aware of Applegate's reputation, Hellstrom quickly put his engineers to work, and in 1952 they introduced their Centennial Model in steel or aluminum (airweight). Over time they have become one of Smith & Wesson's most popular models. However very few owners know how and why they came to be.

 

[Oyeboten]

Very interesting details Old Fuff...


I always liked those 'Centennial' Models.


Never owned one ( yet ) though...

 

[zimmerstutzen]

I have an old small Martini, (BSA) in 357. My daughter wanted to compete in a BPC 100 yard match, so I showed her how to load 38 S&W cases with an old Ideal nut cracker. She sat behind the firing line in the parking lot loading the shells. Came down to shoot her relay. All five in the black at 100 yds offhand with a gun she never fired before and ammo she had no prior experience loading. She used the dipper that came with the nut cracker to load black powder and then a thin grease cookie over the powder and then a 38 Special lead bullet lubed cooking oil. She was 12 at the time.