Anyone have hands on experience with '92 clones in .44-40

[Jason_W]

My interest in the old hyphenated cartridges of the 19th century has spiked and I'm looking to start a collection with a '92 clone in .44 WCF.

Does anyone here have any hands on experience with current production '92s chambered as such? I know my options are probably fairly limited.

 

[Onmilo]

I had a Rossi 92 carbine in .44/40 several years ago.
It was hands down the most accurate lever action pistol caliber long gun I have ever owned.
I got rid of it because .44/40s are kind of a PITA to reload.
I regret that decision.

 

[Jason_W]

I've read that about the difficulty of reloading, but I like a challenge to keep me busy with something productive after work.

Did you ever slug the bore of your Rossi? I've read that some manufacturers just toss on a .44 mag barrel, thus meaning .427-.428 bullets will be a bit undersized.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The varying bore sizes is one problem, the other is the thin brass. You can count on crumpling a case or two at every reloading session.

 

[eastbank]

if you take a little care you will not loose many cases, i load several thousand 44-40,s a year for three 44-40,s with 10grs unique and 200gr .426-428 dia cast bullets and don,t loose 8-10 cases a year, adjust you dies right and use the right dia bullets for your rifle, belling the case and crimping the bullet are the most important things to remember and go slow untill you have mastered it. i load for the 25-20,32-20, 38-40,s and i use the same loading process with the same results. eastbank.

 

[200Apples]

.

Onmilo

I had a Rossi 92 carbine in .44/40 several years ago.
It was hands down the most accurate lever action pistol caliber long gun I have ever owned.

I have to concur.

To no one in particular...

I own a Rossi 92 16" round-barreled carbine in .357 and a Browning 92 in .44 mag and they are hands down the most fun rifles to shoot because they're so dang'd accurate! I realize they're not .44-40 but the cartridge is similar in that it's a fat, straight-wall cartridge.

Granted, pistol caliber cartridges don't have the range of a rifle round, but up through 125 yds they're effective, and if you like .44 from a wheelgun just wait until you toss it through a rifle barrel. As someone notable once said, "It [becomes] another animal entirely".

 

[Onmilo]

I've read that about the difficulty of reloading, but I like a challenge to keep me busy with something productive after work.

Did you ever slug the bore of your Rossi? I've read that some manufacturers just toss on a .44 mag barrel, thus meaning .427-.428 bullets will be a bit undersized.

I never slugged the barrel and assumed it was somewhere between .427 & .429
I loaded 200 grain hard cast lead flat tips sized .428 for mine.

 

[BCRider]

There's also the 1866's and 1873's to consider if you're not set in concrete on the idea of an 1892. More money than a Rossi 1892 but probably a better historical match to the round in the case of the 1873.

On the reloading and "delicacy" of the .44-40 brass. I've only done two small batches for my 1866 so far. I simply didn't find that it was an issue. BUT ! ! !..... I always use case lube even on my straight wall handgun ammo just to ease the lever load on the Dillon 550b progressive press I use.

In the case of the .44-40 I don't have a Dillon shell plate conversion kit yet so my first couple of test batches were done on the single stage. And again I used a little spritz of case lube on a pad and roll the casings over it so each gets a whiff of lube to ease the trip through the sizing die.

One or two did get mashed when I didn't hold them in place and the lip caught the edge of the die mouth. But that was my fault. They sure did crumple easily though. Much easier than .38Spl or .357mag or .44Mag brass. So there sure is something valid in the concern. But then that's all the more reason for a little case lube to ease the forming.

 

[Jason_W]

The reason I'm primarily interested in the '92 as opposed to the '73 is that I'd like to hunt with the rifle if I ever get the opportunity. I know the '92 is the stronger action, which would give me the option of handloading duplicates of the WHV loads introduced in 1903 (200 grain bullet at approx. 1500 f/s).

But, that's not chiseled in stone yet. Some of those '73 reproductions are gorgeous.

 

[FROGO207]

I have reloaded 500 or so 44-40 rounds so far. I used Trail Boss and ended up at Max published load. I only use them in a reproduction revolver so far. Do lube them when sizing. The thing I had to do to keep them from crushing when seating was to trim them all the same length the first time I resized them then make sure you use enough bell that the base of the bullet fits inside the top of the neck. I also always crimp in a separate step and that helps me as well. Really nothing way out of the ordinary when reloading them to me.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Can't help you with the current reproductions, but the Winchester Model 1892 rifle at the top of this photo was made in 1894 and the 1892 Carbine at the bottom was made around 1916. Both are chambered for 44-40. I have shot probably a few thousand 44-40 rounds through these rifles and several other 44-40 lever guns in CAS.







The original 19th Century rifling groove diameter of 44-40 was .427. Yes, some modern manufacturers are using the same .429 barrels that they use for 44 Magnum/44 Special. Most current Uberti rifles come with .429 barrels. These Winchesters have the original .427 groove diameter. I have slugged all my 44-40 rifles, and some have .427 barrels and some have .429 barrels. Because of this I have settled on .428 for all my 44-40 loading. Since I use dead soft pure lead bullets with my Black Powder loads, I expect the .428 bullets are bumping up in diameter in the .429 barrels and fill up the rifling grooves. In any case, they shoot very accurately.

The varying bore sizes is one problem, the other is the thin brass. You can count on crumpling a case or two at every reloading session.

Horsefeathers!!!

I seldom crumple a 44-40 case anymore. There are a couple of tricks that I have learned over time. First off, if you need to use 'fat' bullets, such as .429 or .430 diameter, you stand more of a chance of crumpling the thin neck. If you are using slightly smaller bullets, on the order of .427 or .428 there will be less friction as the bullet slides down the neck and less reason for the case mouth to crumple. One trick is to use the case belling insert from a 44 Magnum/44 Special die set. Since 44 Mag/44 Sp die sets are designed for .429 or .430 bullets, the belling insert will be a couple of thousandths larger in diameter, swelling the case mouth slightly more, reducing the friction as the bullet slides in and reducing the tendency to crumple the neck.

Here is a photo of a 44-40 with a crumpled neck. Notice the crumple is down below the bottom of the bullet.







What tends to happen is that as the case rises up in the seating/belling die, 'swallowing' the bullet as it goes, if the case mouth comes to a hard stop against the crimp groove in the bullet before the case stops moving up, the brass has nowhere to go and winds up being shoved down below the bullet. A crumple like this is often the result. If the same thing happened with a more robust case like 45 Colt, the brass would simply dig into the bullet and no crumple would happen. But the brass is so thin at the case mouth with 44-40, usually on the order of about .007 thick, that it cannot bite into the bullet. Instead it yields and bulges down below the bullet.



The solution is very simple. Set up your die so that a hairline of space remains between the bottom of the crimp groove and the top of the case.

Like this:



The crimp will form but will not butt up against the body of the bullet, and there will be no bulge.

By the way, I have never trimmed a piece of 'pistol caliber' brass. It does not stretch enough to need trimming. So to set up my dies for seating/crimping 44-40 I measured a bunch of cases and selected the longest ones to set up the dies. Shorter cases will just have slightly more space under the crimp groove. All you need is a few thousandths.

Haven't crumpled a 44-40 case in years.

 

[Walkalong]

Nice looking crimp.

So to set up my dies for seating/crimping 44-40 I measured a bunch of cases and selected the longest ones to set up the dies. Shorter cases will just have slightly more space under the crimp groove.

Which is exactly how one should do it if they don't trim cases. Listen to the man.

 

[Jason_W]

Howdy

Can't help you with the current reproductions, but the Winchester Model 1892 rifle at the top of this photo was made in 1894 and the 1892 Carbine at the bottom was made around 1916. Both are chambered for 44-40. I have shot probably a few thousand 44-40 rounds through these rifles and several other 44-40 lever guns in CAS.







The original 19th Century rifling groove diameter of 44-40 was .427. Yes, some modern manufacturers are using the same .429 barrels that they use for 44 Magnum/44 Special. Most current Uberti rifles come with .429 barrels. These Winchesters have the original .427 groove diameter. I have slugged all my 44-40 rifles, and some have .427 barrels and some have .429 barrels. Because of this I have settled on .428 for all my 44-40 loading. Since I use dead soft pure lead bullets with my Black Powder loads, I expect the .428 bullets are bumping up in diameter in the .429 barrels and fill up the rifling grooves. In any case, they shoot very accurately.



Horsefeathers!!!

I seldom crumple a 44-40 case anymore. There are a couple of tricks that I have learned over time. First off, if you need to use 'fat' bullets, such as .429 or .430 diameter, you stand more of a chance of crumpling the thin neck. If you are using slightly smaller bullets, on the order of .427 or .428 there will be less friction as the bullet slides down the neck and less reason for the case mouth to crumple. One trick is to use the case belling insert from a 44 Magnum/44 Special die set. Since 44 Mag/44 Sp die sets are designed for .429 or .430 bullets, the belling insert will be a couple of thousandths larger in diameter, swelling the case mouth slightly more, reducing the friction as the bullet slides in and reducing the tendency to crumple the neck.

Here is a photo of a 44-40 with a crumpled neck. Notice the crumple is down below the bottom of the bullet.







What tends to happen is that as the case rises up in the seating/belling die, 'swallowing' the bullet as it goes, if the case mouth comes to a hard stop against the crimp groove in the bullet before the case stops moving up, the brass has nowhere to go and winds up being shoved down below the bullet. A crumple like this is often the result. If the same thing happened with a more robust case like 45 Colt, the brass would simply dig into the bullet and no crumple would happen. But the brass is so thin at the case mouth with 44-40, usually on the order of about .007 thick, that it cannot bite into the bullet. Instead it yields and bulges down below the bullet.



The solution is very simple. Set up your die so that a hairline of space remains between the bottom of the crimp groove and the top of the case.

Like this:



The crimp will form but will not butt up against the body of the bullet, and there will be no bulge.

By the way, I have never trimmed a piece of 'pistol caliber' brass. It does not stretch enough to need trimming. So to set up my dies for seating/crimping 44-40 I measured a bunch of cases and selected the longest ones to set up the dies. Shorter cases will just have slightly more space under the crimp groove. All you need is a few thousandths.

Haven't crumpled a 44-40 case in years.

What beautiful rifles. Did you do any restoration? They look mint.

I'm pretty sure that the only way I'll ever own original production (19th century) firearms is if I happen to buy an old house and there is a long forgotten levergun in the attic. So, realistically, I'll have to buy a reproduction.

 

[TenDriver]

.







I have to concur.



To no one in particular...



I own a Rossi 92 16" round-barreled carbine in .357 and a Browning 92 in .44 mag and they are hands down the most fun rifles to shoot because they're so dang'd accurate! I realize they're not .44-40 but the cartridge is similar in that it's a fat, straight-wall cartridge.



Granted, pistol caliber cartridges don't have the range of a rifle round, but up through 125 yds they're effective, and if you like .44 from a wheelgun just wait until you toss it through a rifle barrel. As someone notable once said, "It [becomes] another animal entirely".

So true. My Rossi 92 imparts more perceived recoil than anything else I have when shooting full power loads.

 

[Jason_W]

It's looking like Taylor's is the only outfit currently offering a '92 repro in .44 WCF.

Those are made by Chiappa, correct?