Apartment dwellers... are tactics even that relevant?

[FTF]

I live in a 900sqft 1 bd/1br apartment. I have plenty of guns, of course, I'm lacking a shotty at the moment which complicates. I don't have a gun-safe here, so my first concern is to protect my rather substantial investments by 'hiding' what I do have as best I can, and leaving what I think I would "need" in a pinch, in a readilaccessible area...

Of course, not owning my own home, there always the unexpected complications of the 1/1000 chance of a building emergency where the apartment peeps would come in unnanounced at 1am. Of course, upon reading the lease agreement, it would either have to be 24 hours written notice or a serious life and death type situation where their presence would be announced just as much as the popo and would probably be the FD or PD coming in anyways.

I do what I can. I have windows in my bedroom and a door, both of which are locked. When I go to bed, I shove a rug to block my bedroom access from the living room (front door) and the outside/bedroom door is denied quiet entry by a big chair... may buy me a few sec who knows. First reach-to gun is the 6" bbl .357 which I am fully comfortable with. Next is the fully loaded AR under the bed surrounded by a mess of clothes (us apartment types must be creative) and if it actually goes that far, God help me anyways.

"bumps in the night" are not so much asking for a clearing strategy in an apartment. I can pretty much peek my head around the corner and clear the whole place. Am I being reasonably sound in my theory that, providing I wake up (no dogs), that a .357 mostly hidden close by is my most sound deterrant? I'm still not too keen on taking the chance of busting a shotgun in an apartment.. yes I'm scared of overpenetration with any load.

Do any of you apartment peeps agonize over this? I'm not sure I have the legal grounds to arbitrarily bust a hole in someone I deem 'unauthorized' in my place.... I mean, if they don't identify themselves, and I figure this fact out first, they are going down regardless, but the civil thing could get expensive. Apartments SUCK!

 

[OrvilleYertleson]

Your firearm choice seems more than adaquate. I came to the conclusion long ago that a shotgun was probably too much gun for a small apartment because any bad guy could cover such a small distance before I could deploy it. But I could grab a handgun off the nightstand quickly and without getting out of bed or sitting up. If someone is pounding on your door and you have time, then you have your AR, which is nothing to scoff at.

Buy a skinny bicycle lock and thread it through the actions of your firearms and around something solid. It won't stop someone for long, but it will prevent the sort of 'grab and go' theft that is so common in apartment complexes.

I would reconsider your thoughts on lethal force. Especially in an apartment (are you in college apartments?) you are likely to have a drunk neighbor get confused and enter your residence, or someof your dumbass friends break into your place when they are trying to play a prank or what not. That sort of situation, while inexcusable, does not justify shooting. When I lived in an apartment, I always had firearms handy, but also a ball bat.

If you are really worried someone will break into your apartment while you are in it, buy a door blocker. Basically it is a big bar that goes under your doorknob and leans at an angle back to the floor where it has a rubber pad to keep it from sliding.

Also, for your windows, it is easy to tape a dowel rod so that it will block the window from opening, even if the lock gets broken. if you are seriously worried about it you can buy laminates that stick to the window like window tint, except they prevent the window from being shattered. They are pretty cheap too. Here is the first brand I pulled up from a web search: http://www.usace.com/400_series.htm

 

[orangeninja]

Living in an apartment lends its own concerns. Be worried about over penetration and yes, tactics ALWAYS matter. 900sq ft. is plenty of room to be killed in as most gunfights occur less than 10 feet away.

 

[Handgun Midas]

I have my own apartment worries.

My apartment would be an excellent theft target because it is ground floor, in the back, and my roomie has his home theater set up right next to the patio door and large window. I assure you that it could all be easily hauled away by two guys in just a few minutes.

I, on the other hand, have all my possesions in my own room, which is always locked. The window could be broken through, but I have blackout drapes over the window so no one could possibly see into my room from the outside.

Things I need and plan to have inside two months:

- A .45 I can bear the cops taking should I discharge it
- A CCW permit
- A gun safe
- Flashlights
- OC spray

If someone comes through the patio, I honestly feel that, in the case of a theft, even if I never left my room that they wouldn't bother triying to get in. If they did, then I'm counting on myself to have been awakened already with my handgun in condition 3 beside me. (roomie insists no loaded guns, I say an empty chamber isn't loaded).

If they try the front door, than I, and everyone nearby would have been awakened. Dogs would be barking. Even if they pick the lock and get in, the door opens loudly enough that I will be awakened by it, and hopefully realize what could be happening.

If it comes to shooting, then there are two directions that I can't possibly over-penetrate and hit a neighbor. One is towards the back and towards his room. The other is our weakspot, the patio door.
But that means I would have to be in that room, and armed, or exited my room, safely, and in time to stop the event.

Other concerns:
-When I work nights, roomie will be in the apartment alone. I assure you that he is still very much a sheeple.
-If I wake up, and the event is already underway, do I exit the safety or defensive advantage of my room if I think my roomate is in danger?

Just by writing this I can tell that we need to:
-get alternate blinds installed in the living room
-the patio door needs to have a stop crammed under it
-my roomate needs to lock his bedroom door
-and he needs OC spray at the least.

Our apartment is in a nice area. I believe the chances of a break-in are slim, even though we are a good target. I do not feel threatened as I live and work in this area.
But it's always the stuff that you didn't see coming. That's the point.

 

[nick012000]

Your roomie says no loaded guns, but he obviously doesn't know the first rule of firearm safety. All guns are always loaded.

 

[Handgun Midas]

Your roomie says no loaded guns, but he obviously doesn't know the first rule of firearm safety. All guns are always loaded

Though I haven't asked him, I'm quite certain that his reasoning is that he is afraid of me playing around and putting a ND through the wall or ceiling and causing all sorts of hell for the both of us. I honestly sympathize with this perspective.

I want to CCW, and the CCW gun would also be my HD gun. So if I CCW in conditon 1 but have to revert to condition 3 everytime I walk through our door, then I don't even trust myself to the remote possibilty of me juggling that one round incorrectly and having a ND.

So I decided to CCW in condition 3 as well, which would allow me to simply place the gun where I need it and not worry about emptying or reloading chambers. I'll just have to include a slide rack in my presentation drills, and chamber a round if I feel I'm in a place where I might have to use my gun. But that's another discussion.

 

[WeedWhacker]

I used to think hiding firearms was a decent solution to the smash-and-grab problem... but the problem, as you state, is that there are just not that many places to stash long guns (pistols, yeah, they are much easier to hide behind the Cream 'o Mushroom).

I gave up and am buying a Zanotti Armor take-down "safe". 10ga steel walls aren't my first choice, but stealth should be a great ally, too: no one will see me lugging a "safe" inside my apartment, and if anyone tries a smash-and-grab, it will generally be more than a match for them.

The next step is to rig an alarm which will call my cell phone and/or send an email to work if anyone enters the house: I figure if I can slap together a computer running Asterisk and hook up a door and window sensor to the serial ports of the PC, it should do the trick for now.

 

[XavierBreath]

I can pretty much peek my head around the corner and clear the whole place. Am I being reasonably sound in my theory that, providing I wake up (no dogs), that a .357 mostly hidden close by is my most sound deterrant? I'm still not too keen on taking the chance of busting a shotgun in an apartment.. yes I'm scared of overpenetration with any load.

I will simply point out a couple of things before I dash off to work.......

First, tactics are always relevant. Firearms do not prevail in a confrontation. Sound tactics do. It is always better to have sound tactics and no gun than a gun and no tactics. Of course, it's preferable to have both.

The smaller the area of the encounter, ie, an apartment, the more important tactics become. This is because the time you generally have immediately before the encounter will be markedly less. Less time to arm yourself, less time to gain cover. As you noted, in an apartment, one learns to accept ambient noises that they do not in a house. Chances are, your threat will be one room over at most before you are alerted.

Poking your head around corners is not the way to secure a room. Stay in the shadows, listen, stay quiet. Prepare to shoot. Wait for the threat to reveal themselves to you rather than revealing yourself to the threat. You have all the time in the world. They do not. It is far better to get cover or at least concealment where you can watch a the doorway, dial 911 for back-up, and prepare to remove any threat that comes through the door towards your ambush position. Clearing rooms with several allies is dangerous. Clearing rooms alone is deadly. Don't let Hollywood fool you.

Home defense guns are not deterrents. They are tools to be used to remove threats to one's life.

As for overpenetration, a .357 magnum is about the last handgun I would choose in that regard. That round was developed for penetration. I would first consider a shotgun with low recoil buckshot. If it had to be a handgun, I would lean towards a good JHP in a .45ACP.

 

[crofrog]

(roomie insists no loaded guns, I say an empty chamber isn't loaded).

This is simple. He obviously has no clue what he's talking about so ignore him.

Buy a simple locking safe, if the gun is going to be outside of your immediate control put it in the safe. Otherwise keep it cond 1.

 

[Working Man]

Sound advice from XavierBreath, he covered all points. I would just add that
you do get a safe of some sort or find a way to secure any weapon not in
use or at the immediate ready.

 

[sm]

XavierBreath
alduro.

Great Posts and I agree.

Strategy & Tactics being blunt, I hate the definition most often used today- definitions out of context from how I was raised , taught and continue to believe in.

Refreshing to actually have a thread that is using Strategy & Tactics as I and others were taught the definitions.

In another thread I and others covered Apartments. I also sent about 8 PMs and so many emails. Quite Frankly, I will not post these as the Internet while a great medium - some things need NOT be posted in open forum to give illegal eyes and ears, or wannabe eyes any ideas. I also deleted them.

To me, part of Strategy & Tactics is NOT looking like prey, and taking precautions to NOT be prey.

Perceptions are read by everyone that sees and hears you.

Be they good guys of like mindset, or the punk looking for a easy target.

Do not have stickers on vehicles indicating or giving hints to valuables. Do not leave anything in vehicles themselves to give you away. From Guns to Stereo's to computer equipment...etc. Do not advertise you have something worth going after.

Forget the high dollar gun case with a Mfg, logo. It screams "guns". Get a generic baseball bat carrier, generic canvas small golf bag, generic bargain bin backpack for handguns. Even a $2 canvas tote for bringing in ammo is better than "Gun Store Name" on sack when you buy Blazer Ammo, or Promo Dove/ Quail Loads.

In another thread now to beef up Apts/ Condo's and why, along with having locks and key are discussed.

Radio Shack and similar places have motion alarms, stick one on front door at night after everyone is in for the night. Patio Doors, windows at ground level too.
Many Townhouses have bedrooms upstairs, nice to have a warning if trouble is downstairs.

Even a simple bell like used in retail business that chime or ring when a door opens can signal a patio, window, or front door being messed with.

Pea gravel on back patio makes a distinct "scrunch" sound when walked on, tip-toed on, even with light, treadless shoes a punk might wear.

Have Emergency lighting, again Radio Shack, hardware stores have these...I mean the power boxes are out back, with your APT number on the darn thing, all a BG has to do is pull the lever and selected apts are dark.

Guns are great, just not THE tool for every Strategy & Tactic problem.

Think like a thief.
How would gain access to your APT , and exit?

Read the perceptions of fellow Apt dwellers. In 30 minutes one can find out a LOT about a neighbor, in one week, you have enough to know - that if your intentions were illegal - to commit various crimes to neighbors. When they leave for work, school, go work out, have a date, when they take the trash out, if BF / GF spends the night [ note BF/GFs getting snagged leaving BFs /GF apts at wee hours happens]. Who works gravyard, who is a nurse and takes Emergency call at wee hours...

One has to get into and leave Apt.

If the maintence guy with master key to your apt is standing over you at 3am,with a butcher knife- a Medium Frame Revolver with a bbl up to 3" in . 38spl is real hard to beat.

He cannot get a hold of it very well, no slide to get caught if the Rodeo starts at Bad Breath distance.

--

I have been asked to assist with a young lady and her apartment by her family. A Mutual lady friend got wind of this and I was asked to assist.
Ryobi battery drill is what Daddy bought "daddy's little girl" as a Freshman to College gift as suggested by me.

My role is to find out how to be a thief, a rapist and what steps are needed to keep "daddy's little girl safe". This is what I do as "adopted uncle" .

She has a secure something for keeping valuables in the Apt, and Nobody will even suspect what it is in getting moved in. Her vehicle is being made "secure", first thing that vanity plate with a female name is being removed [stalkers look for these]. Her mom, is getting her a Simplex handgun safe for that vehicle. Her real Uncle is getting her Medeco Locks, and other items.

She has CCWs, she is clay shooter and bird hunter. She can handle a shotgun I am told.

--

I have already gotten "daddy's little girl" attention when she was here with Bigger Sis.
Bigger sis and 'daddy's little girl" were at the Car Wash. I went out to the car as the they guys were doing windows, drying it off , etc. I snatched the key ring and Registration from glove box. I went inside and had a duplicate key made to the Bigger Sis's house out of town.

They thought I was oustside smoking and making sure the guys did a good job on the car.

Nope, I had a customer once have this happen to her, and was startled when a guy came into her house using the house key.

Strategy & Tactic : NEVER have any other keys on a key ring when vehicle is being serviced , or at a car wash.

About 20 minutes later at Wendy's I rattled off where Big Sis lived and handed her her house key.

I told them:

"All I have to do is go to a Thrift store and buy a Logo shirt for $3. I can pretend to be a bug man with a sprayer and clip board. Or I could have a empty pizza box and pretend to be delivering a pizza. Maybe a tool belt...
Let myself in and be waiting for you to come home.

"But I carry concealed" - Big Sis said.

"I will wait until you are in shower maybe by hiding in a closet".

"Oh Crap! All because you have a key, and got my address from insurance and registration while my car was being washed".

"Yep, happened to a customer of mine"

See? Little preventative Strategy & Tactics go a long way in negating bigger Strategy & Tactical problems.

Think like a thief. Think out of the box.


Steve

 

[hso]

Mount it under the bed or back of the closet and take it with you when you move.

Don't secure your doors with stuff pushed against them when a cheap door wedge would provide more assurance.

 

[sm]

hso,

Gee, that looks familar.

Works for traveling, for slowing someone down thru a bedroom door, bathroom door, child proofing a house...

but....but, that is too easy and would prevent one from getting to do ninja rolls and get to use the bat belt with all them gizmos and gadgets doing video game house clearings.

hso-
You are no fun...

Steve

 

[hso]

SM,

My job is to take the 'fun' out of things, but it's actually a calling.

Heck, a simple wooden wedge has more slow-down power than a chair in front of the door.


If you've ever had a kid come bursting into the bedroom at the wrong "moment" you'd consider something this useful.

If you've ever wanted to lock a kid into his bedroom you might consider it too.

If you've ever wanted to lock yourself in your shop...

Add a doorknob jiggle alarm and you won't sleep through the first attempt at entry. You know they're coming. They know you know. That makes unofficial badguys very unhappy and they usually want to go away.

 

[sm]

hso,

Yes.
Yes meaning ...err...I have BTDT and ...

In a High Tech world, one often fueled by Internet Influences , folks are not learning correct basic, simple fundamentals. Some of this "low-tech" stuff has been around for ages - and still works.

Wooden Wedge? Yep, still use one, keep one in the truck. Old habit from traveling. One under front door, one under door in hotel bathroom, and if there is a door between front door and bathroom one went there and any door ajoining rooms.

That simple wedge you shared a pic with, I need to replace mine. Some folks went to FL, rented a Condo, and it actually came in handy at 3am for them...

Motel , no matter what floor, pea gravel, or popcorn kernals on sidewalk outside door "scrunches" makes noise. A glass coke bottle on door knob will fall if knob is turned.

I'm in a house, motion detectors at night. I have a reason for the popcorn kernals on back cement porch - been having some goings on during the day.
And "they" know I am alert and watching. NO reason for some stuff to be up against a back fence to gain entry to this yard, it was placed "just so" to hop into this yard.
I stopped an immediate threat to my mom by simple being alert and visible. I have a knack in "just appearing out of nowhere" all I said was "hi" and the first bunch beat feat.

Apts: toss a dog toy or two around the place, add a dog bowl. Don't need a dog to give impression you have one.

There a quite a few dog houses and dog toys in yards where the single gals, elderly folks, widows/widowers do not even have a dog....but the BGs don't know that.

Who cares if one of them hollers out for Spot to come inside...sounds normal, and BGs are often deterred by dogs.

Apt: Fire, most folks never think to have a Fire plan. Most apts have a front door, if on ground floor you can exit that way...
But you folks on uper floors, - got a rope, ski ladder bought for $10 at yard sale to get out the back way? Window, balcony...?

See guns are fine, I have no problems with discussing guns, knives, martial arts, any of the subject this forum discusses.

To Me - Responsible Fiream Ownership, THR / TFL Mission Statements mean a whole lot more. These are mindsets and living skills.

Here you go to get an idea of MY thinking.

1) Apt [single ladies, close friends]
2) Duplex [widow in one, elderly couple in other that owns duplex and have known each other for 30 yrs]

Both of these I assisted on stuff.

Apt has dog toys, no dogs.
Duplex has a dog house out back, dog toys in both duplexes.

There is a direct line, not dependent on Phone company, and direct Alarm with battery power to alert the neighbor to trouble if for some reason trouble gets to visit.
Both have baby monitors, these are great for listening to downstairs in Townhouses, the back room, all sorts of things. Heck one hidden on back porch works real well...

Fire measures are in place too.

BTW the elderly widow has Rheumatoid Arthritis in weak hand really bad, hand is all distorted, strong hand is better and less flare ups and pain. She cannot shoot a shotgun nor a heavy recoil of any kind, Osteo so bad the Doc said if the slammed the trunk on her car she could break her back. No longer has a car, cannot drive.

Her HD gun? $39.95 Marlin 60 bought at Kmart years ago. she is hell on wheels with it. She acutually has two, we found her another one for $25 in a pawn shop.

Strategy & Tactics ? She is alert , is aware, takes measures to NOT look like prey, has trusted folks take her places, has the trusted Mom & Pop Grocery delivery groceries and trusted Druggist drop of her meds , not the delivery person, one of the older Druggists that works there and she has used forever.

The gals, heck with their schedules, what is a $1 or $2 for a tip with sometimes odd hours and having the Same trusted folks drop off groceries, or meds?

I have had surgeries, I did this. I am a 6' 170# male and my pride and ego is not such I have to prove a darn thing by getting out, being weak, recovering and being "prey".
I had no problem with ladies getting my mail either, as that mailbox for that Apt complex was way down the way and I got better things to do than get mugged getting junk mail, not to mention busting stitches and getting my butt chewed out by a Surgeon and / or making injuries /surgeries worse or complicated.


Forget tricked out exotic ammo for shotguns such as Dragon's Breath...

Spend that money on a compressed air horn like one buys in the Marine / Boat Section.

Now you have a signal device to alert the Apt neighbors like the girls do and the Elderly folks in Duplexes mentioned above. Be it BG or Fire - that sucker will get someone's attention or wake them up!
Even if the cell phone, landline or power is out, you will be heard!

In a hotel/ motel, by golly you will summon attention as well!

To me that Air Horn is a Strategy & Tactic - and it is not even a firearm, an edged weapon, firearm accessory, uber tacticool fuzzy dice or nothing more than...
Good old common sense simple.

I'll say this again for folks that do not visit Shotguns:

The more newfangled guns, accessories, ammo choices , fuzzy dice, and curb feelers we seem to invent - the more folks get wrapped around the axle and dent our streets and highways banging heads as they cycle back around.

Them ain't Potholes - them Marketing Dents. -sm

Think!
Think like a thief, mugger, rapist...



Steve

 

[Nick1911]

"Oh Crap! All because you have a key, and got my address from insurance and registration while my car was being washed".

SM, this is another reason that I don't ever list my actual home address on anything. That includes drivers license, bank account, registration, EVERYTHING.

This book provided some very useful information to that reguard:
Clicky!

 

[Pax Jordana]

hahaha..

Reminds me of my brother's first apartment story when he moved in with his fiancee...

they were *ahem* breaking-in the mattress, having unlocked the door for the first time but a few hours before, when maintenance came knocking for a final inspection before they moved in. Evidently nobody'd told maintenance that they'd picked up their keys and dumped their stuff off....

Well the door had one of those 4 or 6 inch chains on it, and behind it was two hundred pounds of hairy, naked, angry pennsylvania dutch, unhappy at the prospect of home invasion and coitus interruptus.


Mods: If this is totally inappropriate, please delete it. Personally, I think it's funny and have gone to some length to avoid outright obscenity.

 

[Mannlicher]

anyone that can afford guns, can afford a safe.

 

[NMshooter]

Have a bright flashlight.

Have a backup one too.

Nothing fancy required, though 30-40$ will get you a Surefire G2...

ID all targets before shooting.

Do not shoot unless you have to; this means if you light them up with the flashlight and they run away no lighting them up with your firearm, no matter how much you might want to.

ID all targets before shooting.

Yes, that one bears repeating.

Oh, and regardless of what you use, anything capable of killing will be capable of killing through the typical thin walls encountered in most apartments, so instead of worrying about overpenetration of walls worry about only shooting when you have a legitimate shot and not missing your target.

Whatever happens will be over in the time it took you to read this sentence, and it will all have been at spitting distance or less.

 

[mljdeckard]

Even if you just find a steel footlocker type box, get something. If you have guns, you should have the MEANS to lock them up, even if you don't ALWAYS lock them up.

I bought a base model from Stack-On, it has holes pre-drilled to line up with the studs in your closet. Set it in the end of your closet, with the door opening the most convenient direction, and bolt it to the wall. (Depending on how your place was built, you might only be able to make it match with one stud, not two.) It's back out of the way, you can hang something in front of it, it's nearly impossible for someone to wrench it out with a prybar, and when you move out, you have to putty four holes which the landlord won't likely notice anyway.

I compromised for a while, and hid them and hoped for the best, but this box cost me $99, and now I can lock up everything that isn't either in my line of sight or on my body, and know it's secure.

When I'm done with school and established, I'll build a house with a walk-in safe built into one of the basement corners.

 

[Terminight]

"Pea gravel on back patio makes a distinct "scrunch" sound when walked on, tip-toed on, even with light, treadless shoes a punk might wear." Tip toe is not a stealth walk, I train on that stuff and I can tell you now that you wouldnt hear me coming. I wear Colombias with a hard, gripping tread and still, no sound. People that know nothing can be countered with anything, people that know everything can only be countered with direct combat. Practice hard.

 

[sm]

There is no Holy Grail .

I was trained to NOT be in that Apt/ Condo, instead was in the one adjacent, with a 12 bore loaded with slugs as was my lady partner the night the Pros were in town...

Another Pro was caught by a buddy in same business. Pro minus a thumb and much flesh. A Trained German Shepard was quicker that a Pro with special shoes, and the buddy with a .357.

Same Dog went thru the vehicle glass later to stop an immediate threat on a Parking Lot to his Sales Rep owner one night.

No Holy Grail, for either side of the law.

Dog was fine, seems he was trained to get out of a Lincloln Town Car real well...