Applegate/Fairbairn/WW2 Combatives Threads

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Matthew Temkin

Matthew Temkin

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My old instructor, Carl Cestari is doing some excellent posting on www.selfdefenseforums.com
If you have any questions on the history/tactics/techniques from the WW2 Commando school of thought, then you have found your forum.
I will be lurking there often.
 
I used to like Applegate's articles but I recently sprung for his "Close Combat Files." Very interesting and enlightening reading. That Fairbairn, especially, must have been quite a character. :D
 
I have a book called -- Shooting To Live, written by Capt. W.E. Fairbairn and Capt. E.A. Sykes.

Copywrite 1987 by Paladin press, a division of Paladin Enterprises, Inc. P.O. Box 1307 Boulder, Colorado 80306, USA.

Shooting to Live describes methods developed and practised during an eventful quarter of a century and adopted, in spite of their unorthodoxy, by one police organisation after another in the Far East and elsewhere. It is the authors' hope that their relation of these methods may contribute to the efficiency, and therefore safety, of those whose lot it is to use the one-hand gun in the course of duty.

A NOTE FROM THE PUBLISHER
The toughest city in the world was Shanghai. The time was the 1930s. The streets were ruled by gangs. Violent gang wars, murder, rape, and robbery were the order of the day. The night belonged to roaming gangs of toughs. In charge of the Shanghai municipal Police, Capt. W.E. Fairbairn and his partner, Capt Eric Anthony Sykes were determined to reclaim the streets of the citizenry.

Shooting to Live is the product of Fairbairn's and Syke's practical experience with the handgun. Hundreds of incidents provided the basis for the first true book on life-or-death shootouts with the pistol. Shooting to Live teaches, in clear, concise terms, all concepts, considerations, and applications of combat pistolcraft. The methods taught here provided the basis for all the later masters -- Applegate, Weaver, Cooper, Taylor, Chapman, Farnham, Hackathorn, et al. This all-time classic book on combat pistol shooting is a must for the serious shooter.

Mrs. Toro


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1 Kings 14:24
Nevertheless for David's sake did the Lord his God give him a lamp in Jerusalem, to set up his son after him, and to establish Jerusalem: Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only the matter of Uriah the Hittite.
 
Excellent book.
Check out KILL OR GET KILLED by Rex Applegate and QUICK OR DEAD by W. Cassidy from Paladin Press.
 
I have Kill or get Killed by Rex Applegate. I met him at the SOF matches during the 80s several times. He was kind enough to sign the book for my husband in 1987 at the SOF gun show in Las Vegas. In the old days they liked that one-handed shooting.

I did much better after I learned the "Cooper" modern technique. My husband and I both went to gunsite in the 80s when Cooper was still teaching. We had a great time and it really improved our shooting.

Mrs. Toro


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1 John 2:13
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
 
I love most of the WWII combatives except the shooting aspects. I'd much rather stick to Cooper's Modern Technique. How about everyone else?
 
I favor P&S, but anything other than SS for CQB makes sense to me.
 
Matt, :D . I see visions of :banghead: in the not to distant future.

My take is that there is a continuum ranging from conventional two-hand, full extension sighted firing all the way to the Braille (muzzle contact) Method and that in extreme close quarters (inside of three feet or so, IMO) the majority of shooting is not via convential "aimed firing".


Gomez
 
I don't practice or teach gunfighting. I teach and practice fighting. My system and what I endorse is Ju Jistu and Center Axis Relock. If you don't understand the human response to stress and train into it you are wasting your time. I do a class at our dojo and call it Modern Combatives. Translates into if it works then do it.
 
Paul..agreed.
The good folk here on THR are welcome to check out www.glocktalk.com and do searches on both point shooting and Matthew Temkin. Not to mention the excellent articles/books available on www.gutterfighting.org.
I also agree 100% with your post.
PS...three of the Swedish officers that my friend trained in PS have been involved in recent gunfights and won. Two used one hand point shooting with their Sigs, the other killed a gunman at 60 yards with aimed shots from his MP 5.
Which proves that there really is no " PS vs AF" debate. A well trained shooter should be drilled in both.
Funny thing..most police officers will agree with that last statement, while it is usually those with zero pratical experience in dealing with violence who are apt to argue.
There must be a moral in that.....
 
Matt,
I when I did a search on GT and I can't believe how many of those threads that I missed when I was computerless in Georgia. I'm back from my two weeks in Texas and today I'm going to spend the day at the range.

Paul,
the majority of shooting is not via convential "aimed firing"
Click to expand...
I agree with you there and I agree with Matt that both types of shooting should be taught.
 
There are lots of things out there. First study the hardware (human body) that God gave you then find compatable programs. If combat/survival training is not based on the known human response to stress it is a waste of time.
 
I prefer the Modern Isosceles, implemented using Jim Grover's pistol handling techniques. From what I've seen, it's the best stuff out there, for me.
 
Oracle,

For two-handed, eye level shooting Mod Iso is the way to go in my opinion. If you look at the rest of McCann/Grover's videos you will see a bunch of non-eye level, one hand shooting. His Combative Pistol tape is dedicated primarily to contact distance firing, which, I think we can agree, is not generally though of as "aimed fire". The retention position used by McCann, as well as OPS and others is very similar to the Quarter Hip position illustrated in "Shooting To Live With The One Hand Gun" by Fairbairn and Sykes. McCann actually teaches a short ax hand with the off hand as one option when drawing to Retention Position to engage a near threat with the pistol. A colleague of mine spent a week at McCann's school last month and he reports that they did utilize point shooting, explicitly, during a multi-threat live fire exercise in which the first threat is engaged with a strike while the gun is drawn and shots fired from Retention (point shooting), then a more traditional use of point shooting to engage the second target which was approximatley 2M away and then the third threat was engaged with conventional aimed fire (it was approximately 7M away).

For what it's worth, Jeff Cooper taught point shooting for addressing near targets at Gunsite for a long time. I don't know if they still do the Miklik (sic)drill at Gunsite, but if anyone would care to explain how the sights are being used during a miklik drill, I'd love to hear it.:)

If I have the time and space to get my gun out and in front of my face, that is what I plan to do, but I realize that in a lot of situations that is not realistic and, in fact, can be plum dangerous. That's why you have to have unarmed skills integrated into your gun skills and be able to transition between skillsets as needed.
 
Yep, SouthNarc's PSPs are some of the best stuff to come down to "information superhighway" in a long time. He's also started collecting them in PDF format on www.shivworks.com.

This is one of my favorites, because it shows a progression from unarmed reaction to an encounter, through point shooting and ending with a fully extended Mod Iso and convientionally aimed fire.

http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=840
 
Paul Gomez....Right on!!!
Mercop...Fairbairn based what he taught by observing how his officers responded in dozens of firefights. Which is why his system is still relevant today.
And which is why I grow weary of the competition based shooters who feel they have something "better"
But my feelings, backed up by many sources, have well documented/posted on GT.
7677 Hello!!!
I hope some of you guys can come up to the Mass seminar this October.
I will be teaching two 4 hour classes on PS with pistol, rifle and, if possible, sub gun.
There will also be quite a few excellent instructors there teaching other topics as well.
PS..the posts by Southnarc rate right up there with Carl Cestari.
Good stuff!!!
 
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