AR 15 accuracy. What to Expect?

[thefish]

I built up an AR and took it out a few times. Wondering what kind of accuracy is possible out of this.

A little background.
All PSA parts for the most part, and this was kind of a budget build,
Anderson lower ($50)
PSA 16" CHF Stainless Steel 5.56 1:7 Lightweight, Midwest industries free float handguard

http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...-56-1-7-lw-ssk12-upper-without-bcg-or-ch.html

PSA Premium FCG with polished trigger and sear, JP lightweight spring kit provides a crisp and predictable 5.5 lb trigger pull.

Primary Arms 2.5X compact scope

https://www.primaryarms.com/Primary_Arms_2_5X_Compact_Scope_PAC2_5X_p/pac2.5x.htm

I took it out 3 weeks ago, shot 50 yards benchrest, with a gun bag as the "rest" Not ideal, but what I had. The best group is circled in the first pic.

Last weekend took it out again, with some different handloads, thinking I would find a tighter group with a variety of charges. Quite the opposite, groups opened up, and were all over the place. This time I used the bag and some rolled up eggcrate. Again, not a sandbag, but still felt really stable. ( I have a bipod on the way) This is Target 2 and 3. It was windy that day, but I waited for breaks in the wind.

I was disappointed in the groups, but then again, I don't know what to expect out of this build. I'm not expecting a match shooter, and I'm no match shooter, but have been shooting guns a long time, and definitely can tell you these all were calculated triggerpulls.

The barrel was not cleaned since last time out, and last 3 weeks ago I put probably 50 downrange.

Ammo was a mix of handloads, range pickup brass, case length was probably on the short side, but OAL was on spec. H335 varying from IFRC 23 grains to 24.4 grains, in .2 grain increments. Xtreme 55 Grain FMJ Bullets.

I know this is not a match setup, no where near, gun was dirty (although I hear of guys who say they don't clean till 800 rounds), far from perfect brass, etc. Just wondering what would an acceptable group be.

Thanks in advance.

 

[briansmithwins]

Pretty much any AR ought to be able to shoot under 2MOA without half trying.

First thing I'd check is that the scope and mount are still tight. Also check that the barrel isn't loose: grab the end of the barrel and upper receiver and try to twist the barrel. these should not be any movement.

Next, shoot some factory ammo. If it's still shooting 2" groups or worse at 50 yards check the crown for damage.

BSW

 

[tactikel]

IMHO at 50 yards a 1" group is acceptable, 0.5" good, and 0.25" great. If you are shooting 2-3" groups at 50 yards you need to tweak things. Have you had a friend shoot the rifle with similar results? Seek out the best shot you know, and have him shoot some groups. Any signs of damage to the muzzle crown? It's possible the barrel is defective, if things don't tighten up, it's the first thing I would swap out. One last thought, try several different loads, you may find one that gives clearly better groupings.

 

[cat_IT_guy]

Might the optic be the limiting factor? Im not doubting its quality (I have one on my AR), but I find it difficult to use for precision shooting, in part due to the size of the center dot, in part due to the relatively low magnification. IMO, its a good sight that balances close in speed of acquisition with a little bit of magnification for distance, all at an attractive price point for those of us who dont want to spend as much on an optic as on the gun.

 

[wideym]

What most people find hard to accept is that most guns will out shoot the shooter. I know guys who spend $2000 on a Match rifle, only to come out with groups looking like they were using a shotgun.

Bench rest shots are the way to go, but you have to concentrate on what you are doing and do it every shot. If you are doing everything the same 1/2" groups at 50-100' are the standard.

 

[9mmepiphany]

To really find out if there is something amiss with your build, you should:

1. Shoot it off a bench with both the front and the rear resting on sand/range bags. Having the butt stock floating (against your shoulder) isn't helping. A bipod won't help either...there is a whole different technique to using a bipod.

2. Buy some factory loaded ammo. You don't need to go top tier at this point, just something more consistent...maybe American Eagle or Wolf Gold (I've even had very good luck with steel cased, non-lacquered, Wolf 62gr stuff)

3. Start closer in (25 yards) to see how it groups before going back to 50 yards

Your shots really should be around 1" at 50 yards when shooting off a rest. My first shots, resting on a range bag, off a barrel, with a EOTech red dot...with a new BCM upper...were right around 1-1.5"

 

[Reloadron]

PSA 16" CHF Stainless Steel 5.56 1:7

Ammo was a mix of handloads, range pickup brass, case length was probably on the short side, but OAL was on spec. H335 varying from IFRC 23 grains to 24.4 grains, in .2 grain increments. Xtreme 55 Grain FMJ Bullets.

While it can be argued that a 1:7 twist barrel will shoot 55 grain bullets just fine that hasn't always been my experience. I have some Nosler 55 grain ballistic tip boat tail bullets loaded over 25.2 grains of VV N135, BR4 primers and all 1X fired Winchester brass. Cases trimmed to 1.750" and a COL of 2.260". Average velocity is 3180 from my 223 bolt gun 26" barrel 1:12 twist. They shoot sub dime size groups at 100 yards. I shoot that very same ammunition in my 1:7 twist Colt Target Sporter and at 50 yards I get keyholes with 6" or greater groups.

You really need to run some better quality ammunition through the rifle and I would try some heavier bullets in the 69 grain or greater range and good quality bullets. Then see what you get.

Just My Take
Ron

 

[1911 guy]

Pick up some 60 grain or heavier bullets and load some of those. Your limiting factor will be magazine length, I don't think you can go heavier than 68 grain and still make mag length.

Not all groups, but enough that I noticed it in your pics, have vertical stringing. That's something in the bench technique. Whether it's "operator error" or simply needing a better rest bag, I don't know that.

When loading for my bolt guns, I have fine tuned down to 1/10th grain of powder. I have not noticed that my AR is that finicky. 1/2 grain weight seems to be "close enough" to get consistent results out to 300 yards. So if the starting load for a powder is 26 grains and the max is 28.6 (examples only) I work up loads at 26, 26.5, 27, 27.5, 28 and 28.5 Make note of the most accurate powder weight, then you can start playing with seating depth. But you might not have much wiggle room depending on bullet weight.

 

[Lafitte]

Some good suggestions here. I personally would like a little lighter trigger for accuracy, say around 4# for an all round gun.

Lafitte

 

[Robert]

I run 77gr Match Kings of through my 1:7, 20" AR and have had amazing results. Dime sized groups at 100y using an ACOG and sandbags. They will fit in the mag and feed just fine.

But I agree with what other have said, pick up some factory ammo and try shooting off supports.

 

[thefish]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the info, a wealth of it.
I'm going to pick up a few sandbags and come up with a better benchrest plan, and see what happens.

The optic could definitely be contributing, 2.5X is pretty small at 50 yards with the very small center dot, although I do feel I can keep the point of aim consistent. Possibly I'll pick up a cheapish bariska to get a little closer.

I have some factory ammo I'll try too, and pick up some heavier weight bullets.

Thanks for the ideas, I'll systematically take things out and add them back in and see if I can get better groups.

I also have a M&P 15T that i'll maybe swap optics on and see how that groups in comparison. I have a second J&P spring kit i'll throw in it to lighten up the trigger.

Thanks again!

 

[ThePenguinKnight]

Unless your eyesight is very bad, the optic is not likely an issue. That is, unless it is loose on the mounts or the mounts are loose on the rail.

There are a ton of factors that are hard to speak to. Handloading techniques, bench shooting techniques, wind, etc. It's even possible that your barrel nut is undertorqued.

I would start by eliminating as many variable as possible, then try again as you slowly add in your desired items. Check that your barrel nut and scope mounts are tight. Bump to a higher magnification scope if you have one and want to. Set up a very stable shooting platform via front and rear rests. Start short distance and confirm acceptable groups before moving outward. Get some factory ammo that has a reputation of being reasonably consistent (two or three different brands is better).

Once you've determined all the above factors, you'll have a good idea of whether the barrel is capable of decent groups or if something is wrong with it. Then you can move back into handloading with confidence as you try to find that perfect load or set of loads.

That's what I would do, at least.

 

[highpower]

+1 on heavier bullets.

My A2 clone will shoot MOA with NM iron sights and 64 grain match hollowpoints. Those groups open up to twice that size with standard 55 grain FMJ bullets.

Edited to add: I have a 1:9 twist Wilson heavy match on it.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Hi Guys,
The optic could definitely be contributing, 2.5X is pretty small at 50 yards with the very small center dot, although I do feel I can keep the point of aim consistent. Possibly I'll pick up a cheapish bariska to get a little closer.

That might not be the most efficient way to spend additional monies.

At 50 yards, a 1x or red dot (even irons) should be more than sufficient

 

[DRYHUMOR]

If you aren't happy with the JP spring kit, look into a varmint trigger.

 

[d2wing]

I just put together a Del-ton kit that has shot a one inch group at one hundred yards the first session with American Eagle 55 gr ammo. My Carbine shot 1.5 inch groups with a 4-12 scope but that scope failed so I replaced with a 1-4 with was difficult to shoot well due to the reticle covering too much of the target. In addition to other advice I suggest a better quality scope. Not everyone's eyes work well with irons or low power scopes. Cheap scopes can fail and cause issues too.

 

[damienph]

As others have said, definitely shoot it from a rest with two or three brands of factory ammo. Most barrels will shoot 55gr bullets fairly well.

My three rifles are lower end factory built guns but they do shoot well, especially the DPMS Bull 24. With a cheap Midway USA special Simmons scope it will consistantly hit prairie dogs at 200+ yards.

Top-Post ban Bushmaster 1.5-2" avg at 100 yards
Center-DPMS Bull 24 1/2" avg at 100 yards
RRA Tactical Entry 3/4-1" at 100 yards.
(all from a rest)

 

[Steve S.]

My WC Recon in 6.8 will chew the "X" out of a target at 100 yards (about the size of a quarter given the targets I use) - my wife can match me shot for shot - this is using factory 110 V-Max. I think that the only reason that the groups aren't smaller is because we are both average shots - most definitely a case of the rifle will outshoot the shooter.

 

[tuj]

With the 1:7, you should probably look at the 75 and 77gr loads for max accuracy. I would get some Federal Gold Medal 77gr and see how that shoots at 100 off the bags. Using 55gr bulk ammo, I was consistently over 1MOA at 100 yards with my 1:8 setup.

You should be able to get 1MOA pretty consistently if your technique is good, you have a solid rest, there is no major wind, etc.

Here's what my RRA 1:8 20" upper does:

 

[thefish]

Thanks guys. Went to the range for a little bit today. Put on a bipod, but its a little taller than my liking. Didn't have a sandbag so I did the best I could. But groups are getting better with my 55 grain handloads. It's a work in progress. 1.5" x .75" at 50 yards. Not the greatest, but with a better rest I think it will tighten up.

Target should actually be rotated 90 degrees clockwise.

 

[119er]

Glad to see it is working out. I just went from 1:9 barrels to 1:7 barrels and the 55gr bullets don't shoot so hot in the new barrels. 69gr Nosler CC's really shine though. I have loaded 77 Nosler CC's for my 18" 1:7 barrel and anticipate great results with that. With the 69's I went prone on a bipod, no rear rest at 50 yds shooting about one round a sec for the entire 20 rd mag. I could cover my group with my thumb. Of course that's only 50 yds, but it sure is promising. I suggest you try some heavier bullets like those above. Only downside is price really.

 

[OilyPablo]

Just as anecdotal information my DD 5.56 M4D3 1:7 has absolutely a noticeable difference between 55 gr .223 ammo and 62 gr 5.56 ammo at 25-50 yds and beyond even when casually shooting.

 

[rskent]

It looks like you are getting it figured out.

You might want to try working on that trigger a little. A stop screw and bending (not cutting) the legs of the hammer spring should help a lot and
bring the weight down into the 4Lb range. YouTube is your friend.

Also you might want to look at dumping the 55 grain loads. If you are shooting at 100yrds or less you need to try some 52grain Sierra Matchkings.
I have used that little bullet over 23.5 grains of 335 for a long time. Its a great 100 yard load. It seems to shoot well in a lot of different guns.