Are armed criminals in the UK treated better than armed citizens?

[the naked prophet]

It seems to me from reading news from across the pond that if you're caught with a gun, you're more likely to get off easy if you're a criminal than if you were otherwise law abiding.

It seems that I read about a homeowner firing a gun and scaring off criminals being thrown in jail for a long time, while a criminal in a similar situation (but on the other side) would be back out on the street in no time. I don't have any specific articles to show, but just a general feeling I get from reading news articles posted on THR for the past few years.

Is that the case, those of you in the UK? Say you're illegally carrying a gun on the street, and you get caught. Would a street thug get a slap on the wrist compared to a citizen who carries for self-defense (like we can in the US)?

 

[agricola]

No.

For a start, self-defence, even with an illegally held weapon, is not in itself illegal. So if some street thug tried to stab you, and you blew him away, you would probably not face charges for murder (though your possession of a weapon would). One might recall the famous case of the BA executive who stabbed two would-be robbers on the Underground a while back, who was only found guilty for possession of a sword-cane, and not for the assaults.

Secondly there is no recent caselaw of a person defending themselves against attack being convicted of an assault, and the one conviction in the past thirty years which is sometimes cited was overturned on appeal, and the law changed to ensure that it didnt happen again.

Those cases that are mentioned - Martin, Lee-Hastings, Ram, Silcott and others almost invariably have other factors which negate their claims of self-defence. Of course these factors are invariably left out of the initial reports, hence the outrage in previous threads here (and on TFL) and the subsequent explanations.

To that you can add the differences in legal procedure between the US and UK, which in itself has caused more than a few misunderstandings - basically, our Police can and do arrest at a much earlier stage than yours would, largely because of our version of Miranda (which has to be read to a suspect once questions are asked about the offence for which he/she is suspected).

 

[jnojr]

Armed criminals just about everywhere are treated better than law-abiding citizens.

There are whole "civil rights groups" ready to weep and cry for the poor unfortunate criminal.

The "justice" system never prosecutes on every charge and is always quick to plea-bargain numerous offenses down to a couple and accept far less than the maximum sentence, again with everyone weeping for the poor guy who's injustly going to be sent to jail when it's all society's fault.

Once he gets to jail, he gets "time off for good behavior", or just not being caught committing too many or too egregious of offenses on days when the staff is willing to do the paperwork.

And then he gets released early because the jails and prisons are too full.

So, an armed mugger gets at most a couple of years of three hots and a cot in Convict U learning how to not get caught next time. Meanwhile, a regular citizen who defends themselves is charged with everything in the book. Nobody weeps for him... he isn't "disadvantaged", and his status in life doubtless came at the cost of the poor sad mugger forced into a life of crime. He's sentenced to the maximum to "send a message". His life is ruined and he loses everything.

 

[Odd Job]

Say you're illegally carrying a gun on the street, and you get caught. Would a street thug get a slap on the wrist compared to a citizen who carries for self-defense (like we can in the US)?

Citizens can't carry for self defense here in the UK. The only time I would get away with having a gun on my person (and it would have to be a long gun because handguns are banned) would be if I was on my way to or from the range or a private property where I had permission to hunt. The only handguns you can have are blackpowder (I know there are loopholes and Fosbery will probably be along to mention them, but in terms of a loaded handgun you are stuck with blackpowder).
So the bottom line is if the cops did catch me walking down the road with a loaded blackpowder pistol I would be chucked in chookie unless I could provide a legitimate reason why I was carrying (OTHER than self-defense).
We poor bastards here in the UK can't defend ourselves with weapons, that's why Chavs will one day rule this decaying society.

 

[Fletchette]

One might recall the famous case of the BA executive who stabbed two would-be robbers on the Underground a while back, who was only found guilty for possession of a sword-cane, and not for the assaults.

Very similar to the Bernard Goetz case, where a man shot several muggers in the NYC subway and was aquitted of murder charges, but imprisioned for "possession of an unregistered handgun".

The thought that belies such charges is banckrupt; how can an act (self defense) be just, but preparation for that act (having the tool neccessary to perform the act) be unjust?

Typical Liberal double-speak. "Freedom is Slavery"

 

[MarkDido]

Citizens can't carry for self defense here in the UK. The only time I would get away with having a gun on my person (and it would have to be a long gun because handguns are banned) would be if I was on my way to or from the range or a private property where I had permission to hunt. The only handguns you can have are blackpowder (I know there are loopholes and Fosbery will probably be along to mention them, but in terms of a loaded handgun you are stuck with blackpowder).
So the bottom line is if the cops did catch me walking down the road with a loaded blackpowder pistol I would be chucked in chookie unless I could provide a legitimate reason why I was carrying (OTHER than self-defense).
We poor bastards here in the UK can't defend ourselves with weapons, that's why Chavs will one day rule this decaying society.

OddJob

I feel your pain. I lived in London back in the early 80's (NW, near Hendon) and worked downtown in the Navy Building. Loved the people, the weather I could tolerate. I see a once great country being strangled by political correctness and liberal "touchy-feely" attitudes. I'm afraid America isn't far behind.

 

[gak]

The problem is, even in Canada with a typical murder the bad guy's lawyer will always say:

"He is bad because society oppressed his ancestors and planted evidence."
"He is poor due to society"
"He was abused as a child"
"He had to steal to stay alive"
"He had to steal to get food for his familly"
"He is sorry and knows what he did was wrong, but society forced him to do it, he is the victim"
"He was out of his mind, insane with rage over how society is screwing him, the woman just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. It's her fault he killed her. We're lucky he didn't commit suicide after, woulda' been a -real- tradgedy then. Luckily just some innocent person got killed."

Then the prosecuter will say: "Ok, you killed someone, but society made you insane, two years in a medical facility, and you're back on the street."

He killed your wife ? Grats, he's back on the street in two years. No prison time. Taxpayer-funded medical facility with full recreational amenities, pizza night, cable tv, unsupervised leave, free welfare money for when you get out.

 

[Mk VII]

Is that the case, those of you in the UK? Say you're illegally carrying a gun on the street, and you get caught. Would a street thug get a slap on the wrist compared to a citizen who carries for self-defense (like we can in the US)?

There's a mandatory jail sentence for possessing unregistered firearms now, so no.

 

[Fosbery]

The government made a big show of introducing a minimum five year prison sentence for anyone caught with an illegal firearm.

There was a head teacher (principal) a while ago who got 4 years for owning a large collection of illegal guns in addition to his legal ones.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/5130218.stm

The judge said his sentence was reduced for obvious reasons (no danger to anyone, pillar of the community etc) but I've ont heard of anyone getting the full sentence.

I suppose now that Odd job has promoped me, I'll have to fill in the gaps he left

In addition to black powder pistols, other pistols which are legal include: those designed for the humane dispatch of animals, those manufactured before 1919, those that are of special historic interest (prototypes, special serial numbers, owned by famous people, centinary pieces etc) and signalling and starting pistols.

Sadly, 'pistols for the humane dispatch of animals' does not include hunting revolvers...only those vetinary ones designed for use when in contact with the animals head.

Pistols made before 1919 and those of historic interest are not to be loaded or fired and usually cannot be kept at home, but need to be locked up at special sites.

There are also long-barreled-revolvers which are revolvers with dimensions so great that they do not fall foul of the anti-pistol law. These are mostly specially made Taurus revolvers, but there are also Buntlines, Freedom Arms revolvers and some others. The Taurus ones have wrist-braces or counter-wights on armatures, partly to keep them within legal limits and partly to make them easier to hold level.

As has been said, there is no legal carry here (except for going to and from legal activities such as a gun shop, target range, hunting land etc) so anyone caught with a gun in public is a criminal.

I think you will find that a jury is sympathetic to anyone who is obviously otherwise a law abiding citizen who defended themselves (or was carrying for that reason).

Having said that, I've not heard of any otherwise law abiding, upstanding citizen actually carrying in public.

As has been said, the act of defending yourself is not a problem really when it's you or them. Most of the headline grabbing cases, like that of Tony Martin, were not in fact self-defence (in his case, the men he shot were running away from him).

What is a problem is when you defend your property, or you pre-empt an attack. And also of course the extreme restrictions upon firearms and the illegallity of public carry.

Criminals with guns will not get a slap on the wrist, they will go to prison. However, for carrying a fake gun, for assault, vandalism, theft, robbery, intimidation, threats, abuse and possibly for carrying a knife or other weapon, they will just get a slap on the wrist.