Are hunters environmentalists?

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wanderinwalker --
Comments such as "bombing fish" and "we're not part of the natural cycle" are fairly common.
My comment to the "natural cycle" pinhead comment would be "maybe you are not, but I am. Feel free to remove yourself at any time..."
 
Aren't most of those enviroMENTALists the same folks who drive their SUVs to the mall to shop for outdoor clothes?

Yeah, those "environmentally conscious" suburbanites drive their SUVs because they're cool because they look like something us real country folks would drive. But over time, city folks had to make their SUVs more like luxury cars knowing they'll never leave the pavement. The outdoor clothes... :rolleyes: bless their little hearts... they think they're making a fashion statement. They'd have a heart attack if somebody ever told 'em they're wearing hunting clothes. :neener: :neener: :neener: :cool:
 
Keeping the balance,

Are you a hunter that goes out in the woods, walks the 50 mileswhen its -33(at least here in Minnesota), drinks from the river, smells the fresh air of the mighty blue skys. Are you the one that took your child out there showed him that old tree that you took your first buck when his age? did it ever cross your mind if you might be hurting the nature or anything else - did not. Because hunting feels right! there is nothing bad or sad about it. we have done it for millions of years and thank God we will.

-Let- everyone tell you how bad hunting is and how harmfull it is for the nature without ever being a part of it.
-don't let- anyone tell you "we are modern and we do not need to hunt anymore for any reason''
 
Aren't most of those enviroMENTALists the same folks who drive their SUVs to the mall to shop for outdoor clothes?


Yeah, those "environmentally conscious" suburbanites drive their SUVs because they're cool because they look like something us real country folks would drive. But over time, city folks had to make their SUVs more like luxury cars knowing they'll never leave the pavement. The outdoor clothes... bless their little hearts... they think they're making a fashion statement. They'd have a heart attack if somebody ever told 'em they're wearing hunting clothes.
This is some of the most self defeating type thinking I ever have seen on THR. I almost cannot believe what I am reading! Are you guys actually hunters? If so don't you consider yourselves environmentalists? You should if you at all give a hoot about nature, the land you use and, the animals you hunt.

Most real 'environmentalists' are those who go out in the field and make use of what they care to protect so that future generations can also use it. Sure - environmentalists come in all sorts of ideologies but some make more sense than others. If you truly wanted to push the cause of hunting, land and game conservation, and so forth then you would make yourselves appear to the public eye as true environmentalists if only because that is a term that overall is acceptable as the symbol of someone who cares about nature. Play the game of the antis and defeat them with their own words; after all it what they have been doing to us for many a year now - they turn around and twist words and truths to make us and our pursuits look bad. We can use those same words in the light of truth to make ourselves look good.


The sad truth is though that: many big macho hunters cannot for a moment consider themselves the true environmentalists! Maybe this is because they see some sort of stigma attached to that word. The reality of the matter is that before it was "cool" for some hippy or, yuppie or new age whacko like a PETA or ALF member, to hold up a banner for an environmental cause, hunters had been doing it for years, actually for decades. Of course, there are some hunters who do it legally and just do not give a rats posterior about nature except how much they can legally use it and, some are outright poachers. Things like that, apathy and outright bad apples are things found in any group. For the most part though, hunters are some of the most environmentally considerate people I have ever met - this even includes suburbanites and city dwellers. Hunters and, hunter's dollars, have actually saved more land and animals than any other group and, they possibly have saved more than all other groups combined. We as hunters should be proud of the role we play in protecting the environment. By we I mean legal and law abiding hunters. We are the truest environmentalists and the most effective environmentalists this planet has ever known. Instead of acting like some "anti-environmentalist" (or like someone who seems to be professing that he or she is against conserving our natural resources) why not present yourselves to the public and the press as who we really are: the most effective group of environmentalists ever!

Best regards,
Glenn B
 
This One Is

Of the fifty years I hunted, I find now that the things I remember best are the hours of walking new trails, or just sitting still and watching. I don't recall exactly how many squirrels I shot, or deer, and ducks, for that matter. I remember how the river looked when the Sun got just high enough to put golden fire on the ripples, and the smell of green cypress cones when the squirrels were feeding on them. I remember the otters, swimming upside down beside my canoe, and looking up at me. I put a lot of meat on the family table, but that is not what fills my memories now.
"Environmentalist" should not mean effeminate, liberal, or whacko, but maybe we let them steal the title away from us, and change the meaning.
Put a camera in your pocket, I'll bet that most of the moments you will save will just be of the wonderful stuff around you.
I'm too old and crippled up to hunt much now, but when I can no longer drag my tail out, just to sit and watch, it will be time for me to go.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v244/tsiya/
 
The notion that environmentalists are whack jobs and hunters and fishermen are conservationists is pretty much just as poor of reasoning as saying all hunters bad guys and all environmentalists are the good guys.

A lot of hunters don't give a rat's behind about nature. Sure, they know that hunting depends on habitiat, but they aren't going to do anything about it. Supposed conservationist hunters shot one of the most common pigeons from the sky in such numbers that the passenger pigeon is now extinct. Considerable laws and limits have had to be put in place to keep hunters from overhunting many other birds and many mammals.

Even well intentioned, the problem with hunters is that they are not representative of a single entity, but are thousands and thousands of individual entities who often don't realize that the small sample they extract from the environment is significant when combined with all the other small samples extracted. In other words, they have a poor overall perspective of what is going on with animal populations outside of the specific areas they see individually.

Many environmentalists are equally bad or worse. Many seem no better at managing animal populations than hunters who kill animals. In fact, they do a lot of stupid things. I have met only a handful of environmentalists who truly take the environment seriously and strive to destroy as little of the environment as possible through their own actions. These few are those that build green, ride bikes, etc. etc. etc. There is nothing worse than a large SUV environmentalist wearing leather boots and nylon pack gear, drinking bottled water. Sure, they feel that their cause is high and mighty, but many really suck at actually being good environmental custodians.

Just for the record here, as a group, humans are crappy custodians of nature. We have the image of the Noble Savage Native American who lived in harmony with the environment. That is crap. Native Americans were every bit as bad as Europeans in overexploiting the environment when Europeans were in a comparable stage of societal and technological development.

Of course, I am not pickingon Native Americans here, but they are the US example of the perfect environmentalists. They are no different than other groups around the world.

So the Native American way is to take from nature only what you need and to use all of the animal, right? There are dozens of bison drive sites where over the last 12000 years, Native Americans drove bison over cliffs in large numbers in order to dispatch the animals efficiently, but they did a poor job of only driving off the few they needed. So they drove off anywhere from a few dozen to hundreds. When faced with the glut of food, they butchered only the really yummy choice parts and ended up having to leave the rest to rot.

In short, humans suck at taking care of the environment and we suck mostly because of the problem of unintended consequences. No matter how noble our cause, we frequently fail to recognize what our impacts on the environment actually are and what the spinoff impacts will be and we end up with unintended and usually quite negative results. My favorite examples of this are the hunters who thought we needed to kills all the wolves, coyotes, other carnivores, etc. and then were over run by rabbits and rodents that were not suffering predation. When they attempted to kill off all the rodents and rabbits that were eating up their grasslands and crops, the carnivores attacked their livestock. This process has been repeated countless times and is documented several times in the Journal of Mammalogy and every fricken time, the hunters and landowners are surprised by what goes wrong when they repeat this process.
 
Very well put, Double Naught Spy.

Comments like
Environmentalists are fanatical whack jobs that believe humans have have no right to to natural resources (themselves excepted).
are gross oversimplifications that help not one bit.

The most basic definition of an environmentalist is one who cares about and works to protect the environment. I'll have to admit to being one, and I think a lot of others here are, too, but are getting hung up on titles.

There are many kinds of "environmentalists." The kind that many here seem to be getting stuck against is the "preservationist." We all know that philosophy simply won't work, outside of discrete little privately-owned parks. The more viable form of environmentalist is the "conservationist." Most hunter environmentalists are conservationists.
 
Glenn Bartley, I see you used a quote of mine before saying

I almost cannot believe what I am reading! Are you guys actually hunters? If so don't you consider yourselves environmentalists? You should if you at all give a hoot about nature, the land you use and, the animals you hunt.

I am really a hunter. I don't base my hunting on killing- I'm a sportsman, not a one man firing squad. I do consider myself an environmentalist, or more appropriately, a conservationist. As such, my tax dollars, under the Pittman Robertson Act, go into preserving and improving habitat and educating new hunters. I've also been known to exercise my 1st Amendment rights and write a letter or two to the editor of the local newspaper. That said, I don't consider myself the kind of environmentalist/conservationist who goes around holding up banners to keep me from exercising my God-given right to hunt. Many of the antis (many of whom are self-described environmentalists), when we say hunters manage wildlife and habitat, will say we "manage so we have more animals to kill". We don't manage to hunt so much as we hunt to manage because we all know the problems with overpopulation. Don't even think about saying I don't give a hoot about nature, the land, and the animals. If I didn't, I wouldn't be out there studying the layout, the animals I hunt, and the other animals they share habitat with. And if you can't take a little humor, get over it.
 
Apology

I apologize for my remark about most environmentalists driving their SUVs to the mall to shop for outdoor clothing. I meant it as a joke. Obviously some members were angered by it and I never set out to offend anyone, anytime.
Yes, I am a hunter. At least I have been a hunter for a good many years. I killed my first head of big game, a mule deer, in 1962. Regretfully, that means my remaining opening days of deer season in this life, can probably be counted on my fingers, or at most on my fingers and toes.
I guess I’d have to go with the “conservationalist” rather than “environmentalist” crowd when it comes to hunting. Then again, while hunting is my favorite outdoor activity, it’s hardly my only one. Both my wife and I hunt, fish, backpack and cross-country ski. We used to climb, but age puts a stop to climbing sooner than it does hunting and backpacking.
But just consider two outdoor activities, hunting and backpacking for a moment. Like I stated, my wife and I enjoy both. Therefore, we have friends and acquaintances in both camps. I can tell you for sure, there are hunters who consider all backpackers “tree huggers” or “animal rights freaks.” Just as there are backpackers who consider all hunters “gun nuts” or “murderers.” Then there are always the hunters who consider people who eat meat but don’t want to kill it themselves, “hypocrites.” And there are always the backpackers who resent seeing people dressed in hunter orange and become alarmed when they here shots in the woods during hunting season.
Actually, that remark about “most” environmentalists and their SUVs at the mall wasn’t even my own. Believe it or not, I was quoting a Biology Professor I had it college a couple of years ago. I should probably explain. See, I went back to school and got my college degree AFTER I retired. Yeah, I’m a little backwards sometimes. If you want to feel awkward and out of place try sitting in a Biology Class full of 20 year olds listening to a lecture about human reproduction, when your youngest daughter is the same age as the professor. But Biology 101 was required for my degree, so I suffered through it. I think my Biology Professor made that remark about “most” environmentalists and their SUVs because she felt most people are hypocrites when it comes to saving the planet. She could well have been right too. Anyway, I thought it was funny. But I do apologize for angering anyone.
 
mustanger98,

I think you may have misunderstood the meaning of my words in my previous post in this thread.

Don't even think about saying I don't give a hoot about nature, the land, and the animals.
As for saying you do not give a hoot about nature, land and, animals - where exactly did I say or imply that? Here is what I wrote that may have made you think so, read it again:

This is some of the most self defeating type thinking I ever have seen on THR. I almost cannot believe what I am reading! Are you guys actually hunters? If so don't you consider yourselves environmentalists? You should if you at all give a hoot about nature, the land you use and, the animals you hunt.
Note my use of the words self defeating. That speaks to the fact that I do believe you guys to be environmentally aware, and conservationists, while at the same time being hunters. BUT I also believe you are helping to defeat our own purpose by your being reticent to call yourselves environmentalists while at the same time bad mouthing environmentalists. The word itself implies something good about the nature of the person who is concerned with the environment. I am not saying you do not give a hoot about nature. You misunderstood my words and my intent if that is what you understood. The overall intent of my post was to show that if you do care about nature you should proudly wear the label environmentalist and; that many hunters seemingly are afraid to use a label/symbol of what they truly are if only because another group also bears that same label. We should not be reticent with this word as applied to us. It is a label that most understand to mean one who is environmentally conscious and friendly. It would be a boon to hunters if the public in general saw us as environmentalists and conservationists but, for a very large portion, they do not. Heck we help them not to see us as such because we strive to not be labeled as such. That is a stumbling block we have thrown at our own feet.

It is nice to know that in essence you are an environmentalist - no you do not need to march in protests or carry banners to be one. You say you are more appropriately a conservationist - actually that is probably incorrect if you want to play semantics. A conservationist is a much broader term than is environmentalist because you could be concerned with conserving anything. A nature conservationist would be more appropriate than either but, the word environmentalist speaks of nature so it fits pretty good too. Yet I will let you use whichever term you prefer, I just don't think we should shun the use of the term environmentalist. As hunters, we should not be concerned only with conserving big and small game but, we should be concerned with conservation of all natural resources - our overall environment - because these resources help promote the 'health of the herd' so to speak.

There are many things we can do to help assure our hunting heritage will be passed along to future generations. You can, as you say, pay excise taxes on hunting gear and, you can also study the animals you hunt. Yet I think there is a lot more that you can do. You see the things you have mentioned are the same things that poachers do. No I am not calling you a poacher, not even thinking it. Yet a whacko extremist environmentalist might say so. They would point out that even poachers who buy rifles and bullets and hunting and fishing gear pay the same tax - so the tax in essence supports their ability to poach because it gives them more animals. Yes this is the convoluted logic they try to use. Poachers also do this:
If I didn't, I wouldn't be out there studying the layout, the animals I hunt, and the other animals they share habitat with.
The whackos would also try to use this against you. Maybe they would do so by saying you are so interested and engrossed by the act of killing an animal that you have to study it and make evil killing plans for months in advance (yes they do try to fan the flames of emotions). So what else can you do that they cannot use against you as readily. Well you mentioned one thing when you said you write to your local papers. I do also but, I add some others to my mailing list. I write to my governor, my state representatives, my reps in Congress and; I try to get others to do so. I buy a Sportsman's license (big game, small game, fishing) and also get a turkey stamp yearly. I buy these even if I do not plan to hunt both big and small game. I have joined three hunting/shooting organizations to help the cause and; I try to get others to do likewise. I donate funds regularly to pro-hunting causes and to pro-nature causes (which are supportive of hunting and fishing - and it takes quite a bit of research to find these groups) and; I try to get others to do likewise. I also am happy to consider myself a Hunter, Fishermen, Environmentalist/Nature Conservationist and am darned proud of it and: I try to get other hunters to consider themselves likewise. I think we should all be proud that we are, no need to be afraid of using a word that the extremists have also chosen for themselves after in essence trying to steal from us our own image as protectors of nature. Let's show the general public who the real environmentalists are and how we do give a hoot.

As for my sense of humor, well its mine. I have as good a sense of humor as the next guy. Yet, there was no humor seen in these words though:

Yeah, those "environmentally conscious" suburbanites drive their SUVs because they're cool because they look like something us real country folks would drive. But over time, city folks had to make their SUVs more like luxury cars knowing they'll never leave the pavement.
Maybe you tried to get funny with your words about hunting clothing and fashion statements but the first two sentences quoted above hold no humor as I read them. They flatly divide city folks/suburbanites and country folks. Thereby you make it seem as if only country folks do it for real and as if city folks/suburbanites are just doing it to look cool in order to mimic 'real country folk. Granted that remark may be unreasonable but, come on now, are you trying to say you were trying to be funny with it! I may have been born at night but, not last night.

If you, or anyone, truly want(s) to preserve our hunting heritage, then maybe you ought not try to get too funny with your words when discussing such issues. The reason being that those funny words may be found to be offensive to city folks. Go ahead if you want and rile up people in big cities. Polarize them to have them wind up on the side opposite our own regarding hunting. What will that accomplish? I think it will accomplish exactly what the extremists/whacko environmentalists (like those in ALF and PETA) want to happen. It will produce a voting base with a huge number of voters that will be anti hunting. That will help lead to the rapid demise of hunting rights as we know them. God may have granted you those rights but, in this country voters will strip you of them. One issue they regularly try to out vote us on is the Pittman Robertson Act. Are you aware that there have been several attempts by such ultra liberal senators as C. Schumann (Dem. NY) to take those tax dollars and to place them into the government's general usage fund as opposed to using them solely for wildlife conservation and hunter education. That would be devastating to hunting enthusiasts (and possibly spill over to fishermen too). License fees would sky-rocket and if that did not support wildlife conservation, then a call for an end to hunting/fishing would soon follow and; it would quite possible be successful.

Instead of alienating people in big cities by making them look like some sort of showoff jerks, why not encourage city folks to enjoy the hunting and fishing sports. Do so by giving hunter education course in the nearest city (and letting the class know where you are from), invite them into our sport by allowing hunters or fishermen access to your land (do not post it or post it with a note that you often grant permission for sportsman), join pro-hunting groups, attend pro-hunting/fishing rallies and so forth. This is not aimed at you, this is a recommendation of something that all of us can and should do to the best of our abilities to preserve our heritage for the future.

All the best,
Glenn B
 
Sharps Shooter,

I, for one, was not angered by anything you or anyne else wrote. Just spurred on into a good conversation. I cannot speak for anyone else for certain but, my guess would be the same for the others here too.

All the best,
Glenn B
 
The problem with the word "environmentalist" is that ithas been stolen from rational use by the Weirldly Tree-Hugger crowd, the extremists. I've always regarded myself as an environmentalist, and still do.

Sorta like the deal where we who are law-abiding gun-owners are misjudged because of the actions of Bad Guys who misuse guns.

Many who profess to care about the environment don't have the technical knowledge as to what has harmful impacts--which includes many who are against hunting.

Hey, don't you think that there are quite a few who have registered here at THR who've posted about how important the Second Amendment is--yet don't send money to such as GOA, or write letters or get involved in politics? I'd bet many of what I'd call the soccer-mopm crowd aren't any different.

As far as the demise of the passenger pigeon: Market "hunting" which reduced the numbers below the survival requirements. The hunting often consisted of using long sticks at night at roost-trees, killing hundreds of birds. The pigeons were a staple of hotel and restaurant menus in the midwest. Also contributory was the cutting of trees in the nesting areas; deforestation to create croplands. It sure wasn't weekend hunters with shotguns.

Exurbanization is doing--to a lesser degree--essentiallythe same thing to elk in some areas.

"Hunters" as we know the term today had zero to do with the near-demise of the bison. It was US Government policy to kill the bufalo in order to subdue the plains Indians by eliminating their mobile food supply.

For all practical purposes there is no difference between "conservationist" and "environmentalist"--as long as oone considers the true meaning of the words.

Art
 
Supposed conservationist hunters shot one of the most common pigeons from the sky in such numbers that the passenger pigeon is now extinct.
What supposed conservationist hunters are you writing about in that sentence? I would really be interested to know. As far as I am aware we have been speaking about legal sporting hunters in modern times (this and the last century). They did not cause the passenger pigeon to go extinct, in fact it was the Market Hunters who did so; this is well documented information. There is quite a difference between Market Hunters and modern day hunters (in the USA) yet animal rights extremists try to show them as being the same types of hunters. I for one have never 'supposed' that market hunters and modern day sporting hunters are alike with any regard as to conservation of the environment or our wildlife. Modern licensed hunters, in this and the last century, have NEVER caused an animal to become extinct but, on the other hand; they have helped to save many such as certain species of Elk, certain types of Big Horn Sheep, Pronghorn, Turkey and so on. While our record at conserving nature has stunk in the past, we are improving and one of the major factors pushing for that improvement is the hunting community.

Best regards,
GB
 
Maybe you tried to get funny with your words about hunting clothing and fashion statements but the first two sentences quoted above hold no humor as I read them. They flatly divide city folks/suburbanites and country folks. Thereby you make it seem as if only country folks do it for real and as if city folks/suburbanites are just doing it to look cool in order to mimic 'real country folk. Granted that remark may be unreasonable but, come on now, are you trying to say you were trying to be funny with it! I may have been born at night but, not last night.

The part about the suburbanites driving SUVs, unlike the part about hunting clothes, ain't the part I was trying to be funny with. That part about SUVs is just a fact of the way their opinion turns the economy. And if you can't see the difference between city folks and country folks, you ain't looking too close or considering that I see the difference every day in my part of the country with so many city folks moving in and not understanding how things work outside suburbia. Some'll get it in time, but others just try to make this just like what they just left. I wasn't born last night either.

I do agree though that we need to take back our old label for it's best meaning. Which means we as hunters are environmental conservationists as opposed to the "man doesn't belong in the environment" idiots. And I'm not being funny about calling 'em idiots, as that's what I consider them. How best to respond to their twisted hyperbole is another debate.

I tend to agree in part with Mongo the Mutterer on this one point:

My comment to the "natural cycle" pinhead comment would be "maybe you are not, but I am. Feel free to remove yourself at any time..."

I don't think the '"natural cycle" pinhead' needs to remove himself so much as he needs to back off and take an objective look at how things work.
 
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