Are Lee .40 S&W carbide four die sets "small" base dies?

[wally]

Are Lee .40 S&W carbide four die sets "small" base dies?

I think my first pass of 6.3 gr Unique with Winchester primers and 180 gr JHP are too hot. Primers look fine, but recoil in my CZ75B is stouter than either Wolf and Armscor 180 gr FMJ. Wolf and Armscor feel about the same in terms of recoil. This seemed like a mid range load from the manuals I have, I used "old" Unique bought about the same time as the manuals, primers are current production bought at a gunshow a few weeks ago.

Case head (just above the extraction grove) on new Winchester Talon and the Armscor rounds measure 0.420". After firing the Armscor measures 0.422". I didn't have any of the unfired factory Winchester (white box) rounds from which my brass came leftover.

My reloads in Winchester brass after going thru last die measures 0.421"
After firing these I measure 0.424 Having read that 0.003 expansion is sign of overpressure for small base dies, I'm wondering if I should shoot the rest, pull 'em or chuck 'em. No buldges like I see in brass from a Glock.

I want to lighten up a bit no matter what, but I'd hate to chuck 'em or waste time pulling them if they should be safe to shoot in a strong gun like the CZ75B. My question could be rephrased: did I overload or are Wolf & Armscor .40 S&W a little light?

Maybe I should compare the recoil of my loads to the Talon, but I'd be comparing 165 gr to 180 gr.

--wally.

 

[racenutz]

I'm in the same boat as you as I just started out reloading my own as well but I do notice a couple of things. In looking up the load data for your combination it lists the charge weights as starting at 5.8 grains & maxing out at 6.4 grains, so you are at the high end of the scale. Also, when I have shot the Wolf ammo it has always seemed to be very mild.

Hope this helps

 

[Black Snowman]

I've noticed that the Winchester primers for standard/magnums seem to be a bit more potent than my CCI Standard only primers. I don't use thm in my .40 S&W and specificly use them in my 10mm for this reason. Every feature has an effect on pressure. Case make and even lot, powers, primers, bullet design, bullet weight, temp, alititude, etc . . . the number of factors are just crazy and can't all be taken into account which is why there's some wiggle room in the designs of the weapons and ammo so if a few conspire together you're only overpressure and not blow to bits.

When you can afford it I recommend a chronograph as well. It can let you know of changes in velocity with changes to the load and help you get velocity and accuracy up while keeping pressures low or even reducing them.

Have fun and be safe

PS: Oh, and to actually answer the question, standard Lee dies are not but they do make them as a Special Order only item.

 

[wally]

I've a chronograph, just not the time to drag it out and set it up, besides it was raining off and on all weekend :-( The correlation between peak pressure (what blows up your gun when a limit is exceeded) and velocity is far from perfect -- doesn't take long to find loads with lower peak pressures yet higher velocities depending on bullet type. Look at:

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...=240&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=Alliant

and compare the Blue Dot 240 gr L vs JSP where a slightly lower pressure gives nearly 100 fps more velocity while burning 2.2gr more powder! So what would I learn from a chronograph measurement?


I've been reloading for a long time, but this is my first attempt at .40 S&W.
Bottom line is I really don't care about velocity, I just want good accuracy and recoil about the same as standard factory ammo for a similar bullet with no pressure signs -- if the difference is noticable I want my load to be less.

Winchester and CCI primers so far have seemed interchangable in my 9mm and 45ACP loads using Unique, but the current Winchester primers in the blue box are brass colored, the old ones I'd used were silver colored in a white box. Could be the change is more than cosmetic. Both old and new boxes say "for standard and magnum loads".

I'd loaded half with the last of my old CCI primers the other half with the new Winchester, can't say I felt any difference in recoil or measured any difference in the case expansion between old and new primers.

That same weekend I'd made my first .44 mag loads using the same relative averaging from a variety of my manuals for a mid range Blue Dot load (12.9 gr Unique CCI magnum primers 240gr JHP). These were noticeably lighter than PMC 240 gr factory loads but shot well so I'm happy with these. I guess .40 S&W is very sensitive to variations -- much more so than my experience with .380ACP, 38 Special, .357, 9mm, 45LC, & 45ACP.

Guess I'll try a few of my loads alternated with 180 gr Gold Dots or Hydrashoks and either chuck 'em or shoot 'em depending on how they compare -- I'll chuck 'em if they recoil more than premium defense ammo. I doubt I'll find the time to pull the remainders, I only made 25 of each expecting to test them in several guns

The case head expansion idea seems to have more merit than looking at the primers for pressure signs -- I just don't have the proper datum from which to interpret my measurements. If standard Lee dies are not "small base" the 0.003 expansion would definitely be a presuure sign if I'm doing the measuring correctly!

--wally.

 

[BluesBear]

Small base is a term usually applied to rifle dies.

The majority of rifle rounds that are reloaded are not loaded for use in semi-automatic rifles. The dies act only minimally on the base. A rifle cartridge that will be fired in the same rifle over and over really doesn't need to be sized to minimum specs. Bolt, lever and pump rifles also exert more leverage during feeding and ejection.

Most handgun caliber dies size the base close to minimun specifications since most of the pistol calibers are for use in semi-automatic pistols and revolvers can have a variation from chamber to chamber.

Unless you have an unusually tight chamber you probably don't need a small base die for your handgun loads.