Are NFA forms confidential taxpayer information?

[Arizona_Mike]

Are NFA forms confidential taxpayer information under section 6103 of the Internal Revenue Code.

This ATF letter says they are: http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/larson_atf_re_nfa_forms.txt

What are the implications if you are asked by a RSO or non-Treasury LEO?

Mike

 

[dogtown tom]

Arizona_Mike ....What are the implications if you are asked by a RSO or non-Treasury LEO?

If you refuse to show the range officer your tax stamp he can kick you off his range.

If you refuse to show your tax stamp to LE expect things to get difficult for you real quick. While FEDERAL law says you are not required to show anyone your tax stamp, your state may.

In Texas, it is a violation of state law to possess SBR's, SBS's, machine guns and silencers.........BUT it is a defense to prosecution if you hold an ATF tax stamp. (meaning you show your stamp or take a ride to jail)

 

[Arizona_Mike]

In AZ they are not prohibited:

The items set forth in subsection A, paragraph 8, subdivision (a), items (i), (ii), (iii) and (iv) of this section do not include any firearms or devices that are registered in the national firearms registry and transfer records of the United States treasury department or any firearm that has been classified as a curio or relic by the United States treasury department.

As a side note, when you take into account the Arizona Firearms Freedom Act (which only excludes full auto and 40mm bore or larger) things could get very interesting from a state (but not federal) perspecftive! Time will tell if the courts looks upon this the way they have done with intrastate reefer. There is a Montana test case with a favorable ruling on standing already in the 9th Circuit.

Mike

 

[medalguy]

Then there's this. Lately, we as the general public really don't know what is truly confidential any longer. We have been TOLD that registration forms are tax documents and therefore confidential and the contents thereof can't be released to anyone, but really, what is a secret any longer? You gotta wonder.

 

[Charger442]

If you refuse to show the range officer your tax stamp he can kick you off his range.

If you refuse to show your tax stamp to LE expect things to get difficult for you real quick. While FEDERAL law says you are not required to show anyone your tax stamp, your state may.

In Texas, it is a violation of state law to possess SBR's, SBS's, machine guns and silencers.........BUT it is a defense to prosecution if you hold an ATF tax stamp. (meaning you show your stamp or take a ride to jail)

on the state level, this is my main focus of legislation to get changed with regards to gun laws.

 

[ATCDoktor]

I always find these types of threads (ATF Forms are protected taxpayer info) somewhat humorous.

For almost 80 years citizens have been processing these forms through their local CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer).

When these citizens drop these forms off at the CLEO's office for signature they are complete.

All the info that's required to be on the form for processing is there.

The only thing missing is the CLEO's signature, ATF Examiners signature and the Tax Stamp.

There is no more information on these forms than there is on your drivers license (except for the serial number of the firearm/silencer).

The humorous part (to me) is that these citizens schlep into the CLEO's office (hat in hand) practically begging for a signature and as soon as the CLEO signs it some (not all) believe that they never have to produce the documents for LEO review.

One minute they're like "PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE Mr. CLEO, sign my forms PUHLEEZ" and as soon as he/she signs it they're like " <deleted> man, this is a TAX DOCUMENT and I can't be compelled to show it to you".

Here's the deal, once the comment period reference trusts is complete, there is the very real possibility that ALL ATF Form 1's and 4's will have to be processed through the CLEO's office.

Here soon all prospective NFA owners will be compelled to show the documents (Form 1's and 4's) to a Law Enforcement Officer for processing.

If you must show them to LE for processing, how are you gonna defend NOT showing them to prove lawful ownership?

Edited to add:

I have had the misfortune of being pulled over for speeding by an Arizona State Trooper and not having my forms.

My weapons were in plain view as some were too hot to stow when I left the range (I left the range in a hurry because I was gonna be late for work).

He didn't "flip out" when he saw the guns but detained me till it could be determined that I was the lawful owner of my NFA items.

He was a nice guy but woefully ignorant of the NFA process.

Having my forms would have gone a long way to shortening my traffic stop.

Nothing will hurt your feelings worse than having 30,000 dollars worth of machineguns roughly handled and displayed and photographed laying in gravel while your sitting in handcuffs on the side of the road.

All for the lack of not having a few pieces of paper.

 

[mbogo]

I have the local BATFE office and the NFA Branch on speed-dial, just in case.

mbogo

 

[Arizona_Mike]

ATCDoktor, you are assuming a hell of a lot from my legal question.

Mike

 

[medalguy]

To get back to your original question about RSO and LEO inquiries, I guess the RSO thing is whether they know you and believe you would bring an NFA item to the range if it were not legal. As far as the LEO question, yes you should always have a copy of your paperwork with you, and I would suggest you might want to carry a copy of your own state law regarding NFA weapons as well. A surprising number of LEO do not know what their own state/local laws are regarding NFA. That's not something they deal with very often. A copy of your local laws might go a long way should you ever be stopped.

I would also suggest these types of weapons be kept out of sight when in transportation for a number of reasons.

 

[Jim K]

All that "confidential" business means is that ATF won't disclose your personal information to unauthorized persons (like the local newspaper). It doesn't mean that no one else can ever be allowed to look at it. Also the statement that the paper must be shown to ATF on demand does NOT mean that ONLY ATF can see it. (Federal agencies tend to simply ignore local laws and LEOs - from ATF's lofty perspective, ordinary cops don't exist.)

If is were a matter of showing the registration to a police officer or spending time in jail while they tried to check it out (during a shutdown, maybe), I would show the papers. Of course some folks might have a martyr complex and be willing to sit in a cell to prove a principle, but I am not one of them.

Jim

 

[Midwest]

They sell used NFA stamps on E-Bay there is a number on the stamp and I guess someone with the means could always trace that number and perhaps somehow derive information out of it...then again maybe not.

While almost on the same subject ... I see a listing for UNUSED NFA stamps on E-Bay, four of them in mint condition.