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ATF reverses decision.. Akins Accelerator now MACHINEGUN

Discussion in 'Legal' started by CanonNinja, Dec 11, 2006.

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  1. CanonNinja

    CanonNinja Member

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    Complete and udder bull****
     
  2. lacoochee

    lacoochee Member

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    Timing is everything

    Of course the ATF starts changing the rules now that the Congress has passed into more Gun Control friendly hands.
     
  3. Bruce333

    Bruce333 Member

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    So, does this mean that bump firing is now a "conversion to a machine gun"?

    $200 tax on each thumb!
     
  4. carterbeauford

    carterbeauford member

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    ATF must have realized that word has finally gotten out that it is illegal for bubba to turn his SKS into a machinegun. They can't throw bubba in jail so they have to go elswhere to prey. They're like coyotes.
     
  5. AJAX22

    AJAX22 Member

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    ultimatly they may be seeking to ban or regulate semi automatics, after all, bump firing allows them to be fired 'full auto'. it may be an attempt to lay the groundwork for broadining the scope of guns that the NFA is applied to.

    they don't really need to pass any new laws that say we can't have any semi autos, all they have to do is say that any gun which has the potential to be discharged with a high rate of fire is a machine gun and therefore subject to the 1934 law. and wham, no more manufacture of autoloaders. 200 dollar taxes all around, and guns get progressivly more dificult to obtain.

    for us in states that don't allow machineguns, they can just confiscate and crush.

    anyway, Doom, Doom
    its a punk move on the batfe's part
     
  6. coltrane679

    coltrane679 Member

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    The ATF (actually the BATFE) is an agency of the Dept. of Justice--it is in the executive branch. If Bush wanted a change there it would happen. He and his people just don't care. After six years of ATF antics under this adminstration, that should be obvious enough to everybody. Quit searching around for scapegoats. The buck is supposed to stop at the top--there's just no one home up there.
     
  7. Glockfan.45

    Glockfan.45 member

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    I wonder how long things like the "Hell Fire", and other trigger activators will stay legal then :uhoh: . On a somewhat related side note Obama visited NH today in an obvious sign of his intentions to run for office in 08 :barf: . Let the assault on semi autos begin.
     
  8. ServiceSoon

    ServiceSoon Member

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    Are you really surprised at these unfortunate serious of events?
     
  9. lacoochee

    lacoochee Member

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    Oh no I agree

    It's just that the Congress was able to control some of W's excesses and now that they have paid for his ineptitude, we get to pay as well. I agree if the President was a friend of the 2A or even a real conservative (note: did not say member of GOP) BATF would be a distant memory of 6 years ago.
     
  10. Ray P

    Ray P Member

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    In retrospective; it is amazing how little actually got done for the gun owners in the last 12 years. Even the AWB expiration was actually the result of no action, not a deliberate reversal.

    It is going to be tough. Wonder if Wubya will negotiate signing a new AWB with the new Dem Congress? Possible, if he wants to show he's still valid.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2006
  11. Manedwolf

    Manedwolf member

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    Yes, Barack Hussein Obama was over in Portsmouth today, despite an utter lack of message, being fawned over by emigrated former Republik of Massachusetts residents because he has a nice smile or something. Made me sick. :barf:
     
  12. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    So if a bump-firing device is illegal, but the laws don't support that, you think they'll re-write your laws? What will that do to ownership of Semi-autos? Not asking incriminating questions, but if they ban semi's, or prohibit import or production of new ones, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being highest, how seriously will citizens take it?
     
  13. DRZinn

    DRZinn Member

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    While I think the whole machine-gun ban is asinine, it's pretty obvious that when you assemble a 10/22 into this stock, what you have is a machine gun.

    Probably didn't help that their promo video called it a "good solution to the 1986 problem."
     
  14. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    If you're firing 1 shot for 1 pull of the trigger, how is it a machine-gun? It's a semi-auto. If the BATFE can ban 1 semi-auto, doesn't that mean they can ban all of them?
     
  15. DRZinn

    DRZinn Member

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    You are pulling the trigger one time, causing the gun to fire multiple times. The gun essentially pulls it's own trigger the rest of the times.

    Look, I'm not saying I agree with the rule, just that under the rule, it looks like a machine-gun to me.
     
  16. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    The unconstitutional NFA says one pull of the trigger per shot (or one function). That's exactly what happens with the Akins. Whether the receiver moves inside the stock (bumpfiring) or attached firmly to it (also bumpfiring) is irrelevant. Ever tried to bumpfire a .22? Not enough recoil to make it happen very easily with a full stock.
    What the ATF just did is change the law on their own. This is utter B.S.
    I'd like to see the wording of this new law they just decided to think up. It probably makes semi-auto's machine guns. :fire:
     
  17. Justin

    Justin Moderator Emeritus

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    THE CHAIR IS AGAINST THE WALL
    What it looks like is immaterial. Per the letter of the law, the Akins Accelerator is obviously not a machinegun. Now, if Congress wanted to move to ban devices to allow bump-firing, I suppose they could do that, but it strikes me as utterly capricious that the ATF, evidently on a whim, has reversed its previous judgement and chosen to put the purchasers of this product in a legalistic limbo where they weren't felons at the time of purchase, but are felons (or something in between) now.
     
  18. Lucky

    Lucky Member

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    " A machine gun is defined as any weapon which shoots, is
    designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot,
    automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by
    a single function of the trigger. The term machine gun shall
    also include any combination of parts from which a machine gun
    can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under
    the control of a person.
    "

    http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_doucet.txt

    Technically, bump-firing does function the trigger repeatedly, well I've never done it, but I'm cheap and only have 5-round magazines, but still my understanding is clear.

    So if a bump-firing rifle is now a machine-gun, that means semi-auto rifles that can be bump-fired are also machine-guns.

    http://www.jpfo.org/savage2.htm

    This just seems like it could be a big problem.
     
  19. Outlaws

    Outlaws Member

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    If you look closely, the operators finger does not move. The whole reciever, barrel, trigger, and even trigger guard, move back during recoil and upon reset, cause the trigger to get operated again.

    Its a f'ing genius system. Probably not accurate for squat, but did I say how genius it is?

    Really, its a borderline machine gun IMO. I mean, yes it is having the trigger operated for every single shot, but the operator is not doing anything to make it happen other than moving a finger into position and holding it there.

    I don't believe in banning machine guns, but I also don't believe in BS'ing myself. That is a machine gun any way you cut it. BUT...not under the guidelines of the NFA...at least by the description in my book I just got this afternoon from the BATFE. :D

    Look, it all boils down to a very thin line. The guy that made it didn't need to market it as someone already posted ("good solution to the 1986 problem") thus more than likely infuriating the ATF. If you ask me, he screwed himself.
     
  20. Outlaws

    Outlaws Member

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    That website is really a bad example. Let me explain.


    The problem I see is that an item cannot be "readily" converted to full-auto with a simple modification or two. It sounds like that disconnector could easily be shaved off...thus leaving a full auto firearm and not a semi auto. :D

    I am not saying its right...I am just saying. :)

    I also see that that site is pointing out the stupidity of outside items that would also have to be classified as a "machine gun", but the author just seems a little biased based on his rejection for poor design.
     
  21. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    I had heard rumors that the SKS was the next gun to get this treatment and as soon as I heard this I figured the BATFE would do their worst to put the kabash on this.

    You see the 10/22 is just a .22 and sort of inoffensive. As soon as Tom sends in the plans for centerfire rifles things suddenly change.

    This will be an interesting case. I hope he is able to fight this as I believe the ruling to be wrong given the letter of the law. It is clearly a loophole type system and clearly a stick poked in the bears side so to speak.

    I don't really have a desire to own one of these and I really don't have any huge desire to own any full auto stuff in general but I think the laws prohibiting them are wrong and I hope this turns out well for Tom simply because I want to see the BATFE put in their place for once.

    A good lawyer really could argue either side as the device really is a sort of gray area. If nothing else this will be interesting.
     
  22. FieroCDSP

    FieroCDSP Member

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    Can anyone tell me what possible legitimate reason you'd need something like that? I mean, what reason besides how cool it would be to have (I know I'd like to fire one)? Are you going to hunt a herd of squirrels with it? A rampaging group of killer rabbits? Lets face it, the intent of the system was to circumvent the machine gun laws in a way that slallomed through the wording. You know it, I know it. By doing so (and also flaunting it as stated above) the guy put all of our rights at possible risk. Could the ATF make this a platform for taking our semi-autos? Yes. Will they? Maybe, maybe not.
     
  23. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    First need has nothing to do with it. When was the last time you NEEDED a gun. Don't say hunting because you don't NEED to hunt. Fact is you are likely to go your entire life without ever NEEDING A GUN. So therefore we don't need AR15s, Remington 870s, Browning Buckmarks, or single shot Chipmunk rifles. Hell I don't need my toy car and it is likely to hurt more people then any of my guns ever will through emissions and fuel use alone.

    Second the inventor absolutely is working a loophole and I think his innovation was commendible. Rolling over and not trying just because you are scared is wrong. What he did was completely legal even in the BATFE's eyes until they "changed their mind." Should we have a legal system where the judge can pretty much say "PSYCHE!!"

    Third it isn't about guns its about justice, freedom, control and a government that should be by and for its people. I am not a tin foil guy, I am not a violence is the way kind of guy but I do think we need people such as Tom to test and push back from time to time. What he did is effectively legal civil disobediance and healthy IMO.

    That is all I have to say about that.

    I am not flaming your opinion as we all have a right to think and express what we want. I am just countering with my opinion. Please do not take offense. Funny though how the PEOPLE in the 1st amendment are so different then those PEOPLE in the second amendment.
     
  24. Outlaws

    Outlaws Member

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    Oh ya....one more thing.

    All that has to happen now is our Democratic congress to change the wording of the NFA to state that any firearm capable of being operated continueously under recoil is a machine gun and thus all new firearms need to be designed so that the they can't do that. Who knows what happens to the ones in circulation. 30 days to pay the tax? :D :D :D :D :D :D
     
  25. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew Member

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    That's what happens during bumpfiring. This guy was smart enough to allow the stock to stay stationary. It's still bumpfiring. Trigger finger stays stationary, gun oscillates on it. Perfectly legal per the ATF's rules.

    No it's not. A real machine gun functions completely differently. Real MG's don't bumpfire and don't require a pull of the trigger for each shot (even if a pull of the trigger is achieved by letting the receiver move far enough rearward to reset it and pulled again by movement of the receiver against a stationary finger).

    Is there anyone with political clout we could petition about this? It's not so much about this particular manufacturer (although you gotta love good 'ol American ingenuity), it's about the ATF changing laws as it see's fit and that it TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!
     
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