Autoload Reliability

[tuj]

My wife was on an SD/murder case. The guy pulled out a Ruger P90 and got off 3 shots before it jammed on him. Those things were known as being fairly reliable from what I understand, yet this is what happened. He was lucky that of those 3 shots, 1 was fatal to his attacker.

There was a guy on I think the AR forum who got confronted/robbed and he pulled his carry gun, a 1911. It jammed on him too, but I'm not sure if it was because he got shot in the hand and/or didn't have a good grip on the grip safety. Either way it wouldn't fire at first.

That said, my SD pistols are autoloaders.

In Jim Crillio's book, he carries a revolver until moving eventually to a Glock while his partner carried a 1911. Both guns had been heavily worked over. (Crillio and his partner were in something like 21 firefights in the NYPD)

 

[hardluk1]

A lot of these jambs depend on how well a person handles stress more than the quality of the firearm. Still is the person a gun guy, Do they really spend time shooting or someone that shoots enough to know how the firearm functions and buys some ammo they have not proofed.

Example , Take a highpoint 45 loaded with Remington 185gr hp and if they can function under stress it will feed and function fine. maybe using some unknown ammo and freak under stress and a stove pipe can happen.

 

[TestPilot]

It's all about risk assessment.

Self-loaders may have higher risk of malfunction, and revolvers have a risk of shooter getting into situatio where more than 6 shot is needed.

If revolvers are less ergonomic for a shooter, the shooter has a higher risk of missed shot if the shooter use a revolver. Same issue if a particular self-loader is less ergnomic for a shooter when the shooter use the self-loader.

I know the potential for malfunction for both type of pistols, and I have no reason to belive they malfunction more than I think they do.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I shot modern and vintage military matches for about ten years. The course of fire was three targets, 10 round each, modern and vintage rifle and pistol. A season was seven matches.

Autoloaders I have used include:
CZ52 pistol with 7.62x25 mostly surplus ammo.
AutoOrdnance Automatic Pistol (1911 clone) mostly .45 Wally World bonus pack.
H&K USP, .40 S&W, Winchester or CCI.
Mauser C96, 7.63x25 handloads
M1 Carbine, .30 carbine Aguila, Lake City, Winchester, Prvi Partizan, Remington.
Yugo M70AB2, 7.63x39 Wolf mostly.
AutoOrdnance TM1 Thompson replica, .45 Federal or Winchester.

Sometimes I would shoot the .45 pistol and M1 carbine in both modern and vintage matches, which would be 60 rounds each gun in one day.

I have come to expect to shoot 30 or 60 rounds from an autoloading gun without a bobble. But occassional bad ammo and once a broken extractor spring taught me safe malfunction drills.

One year the match director gave me a special plaque for deliberately handicapping my self with odd guns and crappy ammo.

 

[mljdeckard]

I tend to agree with #15.

Just because someone is a cop doesn't mean they have had extensive training. Remember, a lot of us are gun guys who became cops, soldiers, etc, but the training academies for these jobs have to assume that they are starting completely from scratch. They have to be able to train someone who has never touched a gun before. Most police academies are probably glad to get new recruits to the point many of us were at by the time we were 15 just shooting with our dads.

In my experience, most police and military shooters who are REALLY good either A: Brought training and experience with them, or B: Take it upon themselves to get more advanced training and experience, on and off the job. Or a combination of both.

If the only shooting you have ever done or will ever do is what you learned at the academy or basic training, you won't be very good. In my unit we even have former marines who get lazy and fail to qualify on the ARMY qual, just because it's been too long.

She might very easily have blocked slide movement, bumped the mag release, any of a dozen things. We only learn NOT to do these things with a lot of range time and training.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Judge the pistol performance in isolation or in actual use by actual users? I submit both sets of data are valid and useful.

The "data" is only useful if its complete. How many rounds did she fire? Was the weapon empty? Did she interfere with the controls somehow? Did she drop the magazine by accident? Where the mags loaded properly? etc...etc.... You don't have any "data" to work with in this instance so it is only anecdotal.

 

[Moparnut]

I was curious how much time one might have to diagnose a firearm failure in the middle of a gun fight. 5, 10 seconds? Taking cover and not knowing where your attacker is may have alot to do with what happened. Think about this. Attacker is coming at you. Your fire x shots at him on the fly. Firearm stops working (out of ammo, ftf, fte). About the only action you could reasonably take IMHO is to drop the mag, clear the slide and reinstall mag. Fyi... I have never been in a fire fight. I just hoping if it ever happened to me I would have enough awareness to do this.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I was curious how much time one might have to diagnose a firearm failure in the middle of a gun fight. 5, 10 seconds?

...About the only action you could reasonably take IMHO is to drop the mag, clear the slide and reinstall mag.

You'd save a step by just going to the speed/emergency reload...takes about 1.5 sec

 

[Moparnut]

What is a speed/emergency load?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Drawing a fresh mag from your carrier, ejecting the mag in the gun, inserting the fresh mag and racking the slide.

You reach for the fresh mag and eject the one in the gun at the same time, racking the slide will clear two of the three most common stoppages without having to diagnose what the actual problem is

 

[jmr40]

Revolvers and semi's have different types of malfunctions. A semi with good ammo and good magazines is every bit as reliable as a revolver with good ammo. The difference is when something happens with a semi you can almost always correct the issue within seconds and continue. It is almost always an ammo problem. When a revolver malfunctions it is as helpful as a brick until it can be taken apart and worked on. Semi's are dependent on good ammo that is consistent to be reliable. Feed them junk, from bad magazines and you will have problems.

Revolvers have many moving parts period, and many of them are exposed where they are easier to break if dropped or if mud and other debris is a possibility. Many more tiny parts with close tolerances for dirt to mess things up. Most of a semi's moving parts are enclosed and protected from dirt and abuse, especially striker fired guns. I've had/seen more revolvers fail to function than semi's.

This is the primary reason semi's have ruled in military use over revolvers for 100+ years. Cops worked in a much different environment and revolvers continued on much longer in LE.

 

[tarosean]

Sounds to me like a lack of training and an overall ignorance on how these mechanical devices function.
..................................................
I suspect the responding officer was similarly ignorant of the workings of her pistol. It either works, or it does not, and if it stopped working, she did not have a clue how to make it work again.

Im guessing you didnt read the article? She was shot multiple times, including shrapnel to her hand, and was lying on the ground. Her gun failed to fire with the shooter standing over her. As did his gun, which led to the ending of the attack.

I certainly wouldn't want to armchair this one...

 

[Hurryin' Hoosier]

The only pistol I've had which could be relied upon to give me problems was a Walther PPK/S of the Smith & Wesson variety. Can't comment on Glocks, as I've never had any desire to own any plastic guns. My Berettas (M9 and Modello 1934), Pistolet Makarovas, CZ vz.82, P64 CZAK, and M57 Tokarevs just keep on keepin' on!

 

[fastbolt]

I'm not going to pretend to address an isolated LE shooting incident at which I either wasn't present and involved, or wasn't afterward directly involved in the investigation, privy to all the details.

I'll offer some comments and thoughts about firearm "reliability", in general, though.

It's not uncommon among LE firearms instructors and armorers to hear that day in & day out, the single most significant cause of a handgun stoppage, malfunction, etc is ... the shooter. Shooter-induced stoppages and malfunctions are probably the cause of 90-95% of the "problems" encountered and observed.

Ammunition is the next largest probably cause of "problems" followed by the smallest cause of "problems", percentage-wise, which is an actual gun problem.

Now, these things can be compounded and skewed a bit further by the use of old, worn and damaged springs (especially recoil & mag springs) being involved, or improper maintenance (especially at the user level, and not caught & corrected by an armorer).

Then there's the environmental influences that can occur (sand, grit, water or other liquid contaminants, temperature and humidity problems, etc).

It's the shooter related things that can occur most often, though, and especially when things start happening fast and getting fuzzy.

Something as simple as unintentionally not letting a SA trigger recovery sufficiently to reset. This can happen more than you might think, and not only in people using TDA guns (Traditional Double Action, but also called DA/SA), but even in DAO/DAO type guns. Shooters get excited and start trying to fire faster than they let the gun recover and be mechanically ready for another shot.

It certainly happens when folks are shooting DA/DAO revolvers.

Or, they "short-stroke" the pump on a pump shotgun (or forget to pump it after the first shot).

Shooter injury? That's a BIG one. If the shooter's hand or arm isn't able to function properly, how can you reasonably expect to operate the gun normally?

Over the more than 20 years I've acted as a firearms instructor, watching both LE and non-LE (albeit mostly LE), I've long since lost any illusions that virtually any handgun (shotgun or rifle) can't be caused to experience some stoppage or other malfunction by something the shooter does, or doesn't do properly.

I've "fixed" far more reported and claimed "gun problems" by "fixing" a shooter.

The next group of problems has involved insufficiently and excessively lubed guns. Both can be a problem at some point.

Semiauto pistols ... of modern design, good quality and modern manufacture ... maintained properly by the shooter/user (and periodically inspected, maintained & supported at the armorer level) ... used with fresh factory ammunition or the proper caliber and good quality ... ought to be as near to totally reliable as someone could reasonably expect. That doesn't mean shooter, ammunition & environmental circumstances & influences can open the door enough for Mr Murphy to slip inside and cause problems, though.

Revolvers? Ditto the modern design, good quality, maintenance, used with good ammo, etc.

The disclaimer here is that they're generally harder for a lot of folks to use. Less ergonomic grip stocks and grip angles, heavy and long DA triggers (which also require full recovery in order to be ready to mechanically fire again), more shooter actions for unloading & loading, and then there's some sharp edges and corners to catch the unwary shooter's thumb ... cylinder latch and the rear of the cylinder ... and you do NOT want to get an errant finger near the barrel/cylinder gap. Hot gasses and occasional bullet/jacket fragments slip out the B/C gap.

As an armorer, I'd much rather detail strip and inspect a number of the pistols for which I've been trained to support than a DA/DAO revolver (I'm also a S&W revolver armorer).

All of that said. I carried a revolver as a young cop, and I'd not be adverse to carrying again if I had to return to uniform duty (but I'd prefer it to be one of the light weight Scandium N-frame .357's that weigh a lot less and hold 8 rounds ).

I often carry a 5-shot snub, but I'm a long time revolver shooter and can still shoot them passably well.

I also carry a number of subcompact, compact & full-size metal & plastic pistols, as well.

I trust ALL of the ones I carry (and support as an armorer) to operate as designed and intended.

FWIW, I've had to repair/correct both some DA revolvers and some plastic pistols lately (and some AR's ... but I can now leave much of that to a couple other armorers, and the shotguns to another armorer).

Things happen.

Someone can risk them happening more often if someone tinkers, modifies or "improves" their handgun, too.

Stoppages and malfunctions can be different things than "failures", but then we would end up getting into some of the reasons LE are taught about clearing stoppages & malfunctions, as well as transitioning to other weapons (secondary, slung rifle or shotgun).

Even so, now that I'm retired I don't have any particular nagging worry about my properly maintained handguns and magazines experiencing stoppages or malfunctions. I inspect the good quality factory ammo I use, to the degree possible visibly, and don't lose sleep worrying about the occasional ammo problems I've observed and experienced on the range over the years.

Things can happen. I train for the unexpected, continuing to do so since I'm keeping my hand in things as an instructor & armorer in my retirement ... and hope to never need to do it off the range.

Just some rambling thoughts.