Because my apple vs orange varied tastes...

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ScarLata

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I'm already thinking about my next rifle. I am not a hater of DI, but I've been reading reviews about every piston AR and bullpup style and I am heavily favoring the piston system, I like the HK MR556, The Scar16 & LWRC but they are into the most quality & more expensive options, so narrowed it down to Sig516 and PWS MK1 Series. On the other hand, in the interesting bullpup world, lots of good reviews about Tavor's heavy trigger that can be easily remedied…
If anyone could give me some feedback, I'll appreciate it.
 
I have no love for bullpups, being left handed. My opinion would be what ever fits your shoulder the best, I like the looks of the 516.
 
My only piston driven AR is the FD308 which is a great gun but for general shooting I don't see any real advantage over the DI system. My bullpup experience is limited to the MSAR-E4 I used to have which was nice and the Kel-Tec RFB which I still own. The RFB is a very nice rifle and left handed friendly since it ejects out the front.

The Tavor does look nice and I saw one at the range recently. The gun seemed to shoot very well from what I saw.
 
Have you owned or have any experience with a regular DI AR15???

Most of the ones from top manufacturers like Colt/BCM/DD are excellent DI rifles. Unless you specifically want a piston gun, I encourage you not to disqualify DI rifles just yet.

Now if you are dead set on a piston gun, then go ahead and buy one based on your budget. Sig makes some good AR15's along with other manufacturers like HK and LWRC. Price and parts compatibility are the things you need to consider.
 
I'd take a look at the Tavor. I'm pretty sure it can be switched to eject to the port side, just not by the flick of a switch. I too have read that there are available trigger fixes.

I'm not sure how much experience you've had with DI, but it's not as detrimental as some would make it sound.

If you're dead set on a piston gun, you could look at Rock River Arms' offerings as well. They might be a bit lower on price if that's an issue.
 
I had a chance to shoot my friend's Tavor before he got rid of it. At first it seemed very awkwardly distributed (too heavy in the butt). But after firing a few rounds I got used to it. It swings very easily as you'd imagine, but almost too easily, I over corrected several times when moving to a new target. Of course when firing a different platform there will be some learning curve. It's a great overall package. Jerry Miculeck posted a video of his 9mm Tavor conversion kit on his YouTube channel last month, that was pretty interesting.

My friend gave me the option to buy it from him for $1600 which I almost jumped on. After thinking about it I decided I could build two ARs or one really, really nice AR for that kind of money, so I passed.

I'm buying into the hype on the DPMS Gii. If I'm buying a new AR right now that'd be it.
 
If you're left handed the SCAR would be the best choice for a conventional pattern rifle and the Tavor for bull pup.

The SCAR is completely ambidextrous and is excellently designed and manufactured. The design seems to be the result of FN's engineers eliminating all the weaknesses of the AR series while making it easy to transition for people that are used to the AR design.

The Tavor can be completely flipped for a leftie, including the charging handle. The Tavor's design looks pretty robust and fairly simple. You do give up the adjustable gas regulator that's found on the Steyr AUG and FN FS2000, as well as the short stroke gas system those rifles use.

As fas as gas piton ARs go, I remain to be convinced you get much improvement for the cost of breaking parts commonality. If I'm going to run a rifle that can't sue the most common parts that are available, I want one that fixes the other shortcomings of the AR basic design.

BSW
 
I run both a piston Huldra and a direct gas BCM, both are 16" midlength with identical furniture.
Here's my brief comparison:

Both run 100%.
Both are more accurate than me.
Both are simple to tear down for cleaning.
DI has been perfected after decades of design evolution.
Early piston systems had carrier tilt wear, but again redesigns have eliminated this issue.

DI pros:
Just a bit softer shooting than the piston.
More parts commonality.
DI cons:
Vents gas (and other nasty stuff) near your face.
Requires regular reapplication of lube when hot.
Lots of carbon to clean off.

Piston pros:
The piston vents gas at the front sight, away from your face.
Lube it once and done for a long time, and less sensitive to lubrication.
Cleaning is a wipedown of the BCG and self cleaning piston.
Piston cons:
BCG and piston are not standard parts (but multiple manufacturers use this piston system)
Slightly sharper recoil pulse.
More weight up front due to piston and op rod instead of gas tube.

If I could only have one, I'd lean towards a DI AR15. Why? Mainly due to parts commonality and proven long term durability.
 
DI guns are not dirtier than piston. It's a false premise. What the piston offers is the opportunity to ignore cleaning it because it's harder to get to. What a quality DI gun offers is the ease of getting to the "piston assembly" because it's in the bolt carrier.

Both pass gas residue out the chamber on unlocking the bolt, both get residue on the brass and bolt, both still require some cleaning of the action regardless. Anyone who has fired and cleaned a blow back gun, roller locked gun, or piston operated gun knows this fact, but the misconception in AR's about it keeps popping up.

If it's an AR design that is converted to piston, then there are reported issues. True piston guns all control the travel of the bolt with rails, rods, or ways in the bolt and receiver that interlock and prevent the bolt carrier from excessive tilting. A converted AR that doesn't address this isn't fully developed. Take a survey of action designs, it becomes obvious.

There is also the limited market availability of proprietary parts - piston gun makers have already gone out of business. The validity of their design means nothing, it's the viability of their business operation in the world of commerce which failed. They didn't convince enough of us to keep buying. One reason is that for all the benefits that might appear to be available, the notion of price stops us from buying. All the piston guns, like it or not, are competing with the existence of the S&W $650 AR. While some consider it very arguable, the fiscal reality is that paying 100% more for a gun can and will not deliver 100% more accuracy or reliability. The incremental increases are often barely measurable if even detectable in some cases.

That is substantially evidenced by Filthy 14, a carbine class loaner gun that has gone over 50,000 rounds with just oiling, wipedowns, and maybe two actual GI thorough cleanings in it's entire service life. A middle of the road priced DI gun.

A lot of AR builders have looked pistons over, for the money the issue is there's no guarantee of improved performance. The record or documentation simply isn't there. If anything, Delta command sidelined the FN SCAR project they started up precisely because of that reason - the SCAR could not demonstrate it did anything worth the expense over the M4. For all the money, no improvement.

Also goes to the Army cancelling most of the carbine testing program. No quantum leaps going back to piston. All it does it control the timing of the bolt unlocking, it does nothing to make it more accurate or help the soldier get more hits. Hits is what are needed in combat, the weapon is just a bullet launching platform, not the actual instrument that delivers the blow. The bullet does the work, if you want a bigger hit, you launch a bigger bullet, and the service has crew served weapons in use and there to do it.

That's why all the underlying suppositions about piston vs DI are basically just a lot of wrangling over side issues. The DI guns we have are working fine, 45 years after adoption, and there's no demonstrated or documented improvement in all the testing or fielding of piston guns in the last 15 years. Nada. Which substantially nullifies all the old school hate that was birthed in the '60s over a change in warfighting known to be faulty before WWII - that large caliber piston guns were an appropriate tool.

Don't look to the political fallout of our policies, on the battlefield the DI gun delivers, which is why all the older guns are out of service and seconded to irregular forces. Modern armies are copying the record our M16 has established by buying or building them.

People will be arguing piston vs DI for decades to come, the really salient point is that millions have been trained on DI for over 45 years, it works, it's available from dozens of makers, and it's going to be in use for another 45 years. It's going to take a really big leap ahead to find something better, how we unlock the bolt really has little to do with how well a soldier shoots with it. The lighter recoil and having more ammo is what is important. So, why change what is known and proven to work?

Because some just want something different. That goes to image enhancement, not the gritty business of shooting other humans. Different rules apply, which are a subject quite outside piston vs DI.
 
While I agree with much of your post, you are incorrect in your first sentence.

The piston system is very easy to clean and maintain. In particular the Adams Arms piston system in the Huldra is a simple twist and removal of the gas piston and op rod out the front of the gas block. You can access the inside of the gas block from front or back, the gas piston itself which is just a short hollow tube, and the gas piston op rod cup. I've noticed no carbon buildup inside the gas block, piston, or piston cup due to the melonite coating. A quick rub with light oil is sufficent to remove any slight traces of carbon present. The bolt face gets more primer sealant on it than carbon, and any carbon that does reach the BCG is not baked on, but just wipes off.

But you are correct in that it doesn't solve any issues, it's just another way to cycle an AR rifle. I just wanted to clear up that misinformation about piston system maintenance.
 
Sometimes we buy a particular rifle just because it scratches an itch. I'm cool with that. But if you're weighing practical options, I'll toss out the following:

Piston driven AR rifles are a solution to a non-problem.

I have yet to see a bullpup design that wasn't severely lacking in one area or another. Some are better than others, but by nature of the design, concessions must be made in capacity, ergonomics, ease of manipulation, trigger quality, etc. When a bullpup excels at one thing, it is because it has severely compromised on another.
 
I've owed and shot a few ARs, and comparing it to the SCAR or AUG after shooting the short stroke gas systems are a lot cleaner (less carbon) on the recoiling parts. What I also notice is that short stroke gas systems stay wetter with oil than DI type ARs.

Less drying out means I can shoot longer without having to take a quick break to drop more line into the rifle while I'm shooting.

BSW
 
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