Been thinking a lot about firearm defense.

[Geckgo]

I'm starting to think that I need to see some new opinions or information. I went the typical route, compare bullet calibres, buy handgun for future ccw, FBI gel testing, when to shoot, legal questions, etc on my way to refining my limited knowledge of firearms. Lately, I find myself wondering what will really matter when the time comes.

On the back porch one late night I heard footsteps approaching and had my 380 at the ready (beside me on the chair, finger outside the trigger, pointing down) when a friend of mine spooked me with a late night unannounced visit. He never saw the firearm, but lately it has started bugging me that I was so quick to grab for it. I've always had something handy, pocketknife, sword, pool cue, what have you when things look like they may take a bad turn, so I guess it really doesn't matter that on this occasion, it was a firearm, but I have never actually had to use an impliment to "fight my way out" of a potentially bad situation. I'm starting to wonder if I would consider fists or one of my alternatives, and training myself to only draw when neccessary to draw.

Got me really thinking about these "enough gun" arguments. It seems like if displaying a weapon is your way to end a bad situation, then it probably matters less to have a small calibre or alternate weapon, but if you are the type of person that will find any other method before drawing, you want that first shot to do it's job, because, it's only at that point that you can really appriciate the fear of loosing your life.

Mental discipline for me from now on to stick to my "ordinary" means of defense before even reaching for my gun. I'm glad I realized all of this before getting my CCW. Just wanted to share this thought, not really a question in here, but feel free to comment if you agree/disagree, or have any further cliffnotes to add.

,Geckgo

 

[Fred Fuller]

While it's good to have more options than the old 'if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' approach to firearms and self defense, keep in mind that when you are carrying a gun, every scuffle you get into is a gunfight - because you brought the gun to the fight. Just because you don't reach for your gun doesn't mean someone else might not try to gain control of it if you go hands on with them and they discover it.

I'd suggest a session of ECQC with Southnarc if you can arrange it... http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp .

fwiw,

lpl

 

[Geckgo]

Thanks for the insight, and the link.

I actually can't remember the last time that something turned into a fight with myself directly involved. Seen alot of them break out around me, occasionally I get bumped, but I find that being alert and keeping a level head stops a lot of fights from happening in the first place, where blatently (did I spell that right? eh I don't care) yelling a command and reaching for your back pocket might actually escallate the situation. Pretty much academic I guess if you stay out of trouble and then when trouble comes looking for you, then you are ready, all the more normal situations I see though, easily handled without ever thinking of the sidearm.

 

[Mike1234567]

If you're worried about being paranoid then you're logical enough to keep it in check.

 

[CVA-66]

Getting nervious when someone comes to your house late at night unannounced, is not paraniod, it's reasonable. I'd have a talk with my friend about late night visits, call first.

 

[Geckgo]

oh yea, we definitely had "the talk", with him and his girlfriend that was accompanying him. "No unannounced footsteps." Thanks for the advice, Mike. I've been hearing a lot of "trigger happy" ccw stories lately from various places. Guess I just don't want to be "that guy".

 

[ranburr]

You ought to consider getting some training. Most classes today are not just "shoot 'em up". A good deal of time is spent on avoiding a fight and how to evaluate if you need to fight.

 

[Geckgo]

Learned a lot from the school of hard knocks. Not opposed to training but at the time it's nearly impossible for me to schedule my CCW, working offshore. The last fight I was in was in high school I think and I've been in some bad situations since then. I'm pretty confident in handling myself till I get a chance to take a class. In the meantime all I have is the internet, not the best source of info, but I try to pick the good pieces out of the mess that's online when I can find them.

 

[Old krow]

I actually can't remember the last time that something turned into a fight with myself directly involved.

I believe the point that Lee was making, or at least it would apply here is something like this;

If someone breaks in while your there, or tries to rob you, and you elect to use a bad or hand to hand, there is still a gun precariously close to the fight if you are carrying. You don't necessarily have to look for a fight. Avoidance is a good policy, but it might not apply to fight that someone brought into your home.

Mental discipline for me from now on to stick to my "ordinary" means of defense before even reaching for my gun.

What are ordinary means of defense and what are you defending yourself against?

 

[Geckgo]

Old Krow, to answer your question, typically when I think of defense, it has more to do with bars and bad neighborhoods than in my home. Being aware of surroundings tends to keep me out of trouble, but sometimes trouble comes knocking, next on the list is either leaving or talking down the aggressor rather than pushing an engagement. If it does come to a fight, I fight dirty and use whatever means are availible to stop the other person, let them calm down, then buy them a drink. I used to reach for my knife, unfold it and hide it behind my wrist in those situations. Now that I have the trump card I guess knowing that it's in condition 1 or 0 is all I need to give me piece of mind. Can't really just yank it out cause I'm nervous, or maybe still pull the knife and wait, if things get bad, drop the knife and grab the iron. In a bar all I will have is my knife.

I'm not arguing with anyone here. You all have very good information, I just talk alot while it soaks in, that's how I listen. I hope nobody takes my comments personally.

With a break-in, being woke up in the night, I don't think is a CCW question (but it is firearm defense of it's still on topic), I'm grabbing a rifle or shotgun and a cellphone, setting up out of sight, and informing the person (from the bedroom) that the police are on the way and I'm armed. I still need to do a lot of thinking on that front though, as I'm sure there are better strategies to be used. My light sleeping and the neighbors dogs both tend to wake me up rather quickly when something is amiss. I'll sleep perfectly through a thunderstorm, but if the wind blows my back door open (sometimes it didn't latch all the way before I fixed it) then I immediately wake up in full alert.

Anyways, this all just basically got me thinking that a full force weapon will beat out a marginal calibre for my situation because when I need it, then I will really need it. Going to start walking my mind through different scenarios and hashing out plans ahead of time that cater to my lifestyle, trying to figure out when to draw and when not to, etc. Its a matter I think, of how far a situation can escallate before someone draws. Some people seem to draw at the first hint of a nervous situation and tell the "stranger" to leave them alone. To each their own, but for myself I believe this would be in err of my better judgement.

 

[JoeSlomo]

I find myself wondering what will really matter when the time comes...

Potential success in any self defense situation is largely determined by the ONE factor you CAN NOT control.

The will of the attacker to carry on their attack, despite fear or injury.

While we may be able to evade or avoid most confrontations and attacks, in the end, we are ALL susceptible to random attacks by exceptionally deranged and violent individuals.

From a different thread that applies to this one:

Firearms stop threats in one of two ways:

1. The mental stop.

The mental stop occurs because the threat either sees the gun, and does NOT want to be shot, OR, because the threat has been shot, and does not want to be shot again, despite being physically capable of continuing their assault.

2. The physical stop.

The physical stop occurs because the threat has sustained enough physical damage to prevent further physical action.

Every firearm has the potential to achieve a mental stop. While handguns are weak compared to rifles, even a .22 short could produce the pain and damage that most people would gladly avoid if they could.

Every firearm has the potential to achieve a physical stop. While the human body is pretty tough, even an air-gun has the potential to achieve a physical stop if it hits the right spot...

I prefer arms that give me the greatest potential to achieve a physical stop, however, the key word in the sentence is "POTENTIAL".

 

[Geckgo]

Well put, JoeSlomo

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Geckgo: I'm starting to wonder if I would consider fists or one of my alternatives, and training myself to only draw when neccessary to draw.

By all means train yourself to draw only when it is necessary to draw--that is, when the use of deadly force is immediately necessary for you to defend yourself against an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury.

Personally, I would not consider using, and possibly injuring, my fists, but it is not a bad idea at all to be able to resort to a less than lethal alternative if deadly force is not required.

By the way, using an impact weapon--bat, bludgeon, stick, whatever--would likely be classified as using deadly force unless you have been trained and certified in the non-letal use of such an item.

Got me really thinking about these "enough gun" arguments. It seems like if displaying a weapon is your way to end a bad situation, then it probably matters less to have a small calibre or alternate weapon, but if you are the type of person that will find any other method before drawing, you want that first shot to do it's job, because, it's only at that point that you can really appriciate the fear of loosing your life.

If you do have to draw, displaying your weapon may well suffice. Or it may not.

Do not fall into the trap of believing that you can select a handgun that will "do its job" with one shot. That's for the movies.

Mental discipline for me from now on to stick to my "ordinary" means of defense before even reaching for my gun. I'm glad I realized all of this before getting my CCW. Just wanted to share this thought, not really a question in here, but feel free to comment if you agree/disagree, or have any further cliffnotes to add.

Your "ordinary means of defense" should be an attempt to avoid potential confrontations, or to try to deescalate them , or to evade or escape.

Should you first employ your fists or "pocketknife, sword, pool cue, whatever", you will likely deprive yourself of the ability to justify the use of your gun under the law.

...typically when I think of defense, it has more to do with bars and bad neighborhoods than in my home.

The first thing you will learn in any good training class, or on the Internet, is to stay out of bad neighborhoods whenever possible, and to not frequent bars.

Anyways, this all just basically got me thinking that a full force weapon will beat out a marginal calibre for my situation because when I need it, then I will really need it.

Any handgun from .380 ACP through .45 ACP will do the job, provided that you do yours.

You will need to put multiple shots in a fraction of a second on a moving torso size target at a nominal range of five to ten yards. And I'm repeating myself, but the "one shot stop" is an elusive anomaly.

Going to start walking my mind through different scenarios and hashing out plans ahead of time that cater to my lifestyle, trying to figure out when to draw and when not to, etc.

First, based on what you'e said about fights and bars, step one may be to change your lifestyle. As to when to draw, that's when you have reason to believe that you are just about to be severely hurt if you do not. And only then.

Its a matter I think, of how far a situation can escallate before someone draws.

You have lost me with that.

Study this, and avail yoursel of some training before you start carring a firearm.

 

[Cosmoline]

Security does not begin with the firearm. You have to create a series of habits such as locking doors, securing windows with a dowel, and not just going to answer knocks. This also means training your friends not to drop by unannounced in the wee hours. You don't have to threaten to shoot them or even mention a firearm, just tell them you almost called the cops and tell them to give you a ring before coming over like that again.

Anyways, this all just basically got me thinking that a full force weapon will beat out a marginal calibre for my situation because when I need it, then I will really need it.

That's the same conclusion I've come to. If someone is actually breaking in, the time for walking around the house with a handgun is over as is the time for fist fights. Whatever firearm you have should be up and ready to fire. You should be behind concealment and cover and you should not come out of there. A long gun with a tactical light moutned on it will give you a much more stable and powerful platform and reduce the chances of missing. The choice of whether to engage is the intruder's. You are calling the cops and telling them to get lost. If they do, great. If they decide to proceed, that's their choice and their funeral. By staying in a secure location in your home and not opening or unlocking any doors you give yourself a better tactical and legal position than, for example, running out on the front lawn with a handgun.

Outside the home things get more complex but you still have considerable control over where you choose to go and how you can avoid confrontations of any kind. I'd advise against engaging in any sort of fist fighting if you're armed. You should be able to retain your firearm and leave when faced with non-deadly force. Never be too proud to run away from a fight.

 

[mfcmb]

The boy scout motto is "be prepared". In following this motto people learn to have the equipment, mindset, training, etc. on hand for things that will never actually happen, but if they do happen need to be responded to without delay.

By having a gun ON hand, you had the equipment needed to deal with a deadly force attack.

By having the gun temporarily IN hand, you placed yourself in a position to respond *in time* should the unexpected visitor turn out to be a danger to you.

So you were prepared for something that didn't happen. On the other hand if the unexpected visitor had been a human predator and if you had not prepared yourself ahead of time, by the time you realized you were underprepared it would most likely have been too late.

I think you acted appropriately as events unfolded, and having to change gears to meet changing conditions as you go through life should be no big deal.

 

[Rail Driver]

I absolutely agree with everyone that has suggested taking training courses. Without training, all you have is a bunch of hardware that doesn't function together efficiently, if at all. I'm not sure if you have your CWL (or whatever they call it in LA) but if you don't, you DEFINITELY want to take a class beforehand even if it's not required. As far as legality concerns go, I hope that you're either carrying with a permit or carrying openly. Learn how, when and when not to use it and you'll be golden.

 

[*NOVA*]

Did anyone mention pepper spray? I mean as long as we are discussing alternatives to using a firearm...

 

[Creature]

Cosmoline said:

Security does not begin with the firearm.

My sentiments exactly.

Half the battle is knowing that one is coming. Mitigate all avenues of unannounced approach.

 

[Geckgo]

The first thing you will learn in any good training class, or on the Internet, is to stay out of bad neighborhoods whenever possible, and to not frequent bars.

Everything stated has been very helpful, thanks all for the comments, reassurances, etc. Unfortunately, hanging around the local tavern is and will continue to be a part of my weekly routing when I'm home, as it is one of my few outlets for socializing. The tavern I go to now is safer than some, more dangerous than Chilies probably though. One thing I won't do is lock myself behind closed doors and stop socially interacting out of fear. There are a lot of places that I've visted in my youth that looking back were not the smartest decisions, but I've seen violent activity at several social events, from Mardi Gras parade (shooting in St. Louis the one after Katrina about a block from where I was) to sporting events, to local taverns and even shopping centers.

I think the one thing that keeps me out of trouble is that when I go out, I'm always aware of my surroundings, but IMO "don't go to bars" is not sound advice. You may as well say, "don't leave your house." When I see a fight break out in a bar, the two people arguing, and anyone who trys to interfere are the only ones hurt most of the time. Leaving afterwards to avoid aftermath is a good idea, but I've never seen someone hurt that (and I've seen a lot of people hurt) wasn't deliberately being rude or losing their temper, or just plain looking for a fight or trying to be a "tough guy."

 

[mizzlep]

@Geckgo

You mentioned that showing the gun may diffuse the situation, and the caliber does not matter so much. This can sometimes be true, but you need to keep something in mind. If you pull a gun on someone, who is similarly armed, things might escalate very quickly. You need to be able to pull the trigger at the moment the other guy pulls his gun, knife, whatever, otherwise you might be shot yourself.

If possible, verbally challenge the person before they get into your personal zone. This way you can get a clearer idea of their intentions. As you're probably aware, a lot of crime victims are a result of opportunity. Criminals aren't usually looking for a late-night in home gun fight, they're looking for a cheap score.

 

[Geckgo]

Well spoken mizzlep. The point I was making was on mindsets for different calibers. Small caliber people tend to rely on the gun, where as larger caliber people are counting on the bullet.

.. wow, that would make a good sig line, I may have to adjust my signature,

Your absolutely right though, I think a very high percentage of crimes are of opportunity. In STL crackheads used to bust out car windows to steal fifty cents out of the console or a bag from the back seat. They didn't care if it was books or rocks inside, just grab the item and worry about what it is later.

Usually, when someone starts making my feelers uncomfortable, I make myself scarce, unless I know exactly what they are up to. Same way that I handle people trying to overload me with bible verses. If I was ever in a situation where I needed to draw, I'm sure it would be time to fire. Guess I'm just making the transition from hidden knife in hand to firearm in holster.

 

[NMGonzo]

Have gun.

Don't shoot till needed.