Berger vs SMK for 600 yards (ar15)

[clutch]

Is the VLD Berger that much better than the less expensive 80 and 90g SMK's?

If so, what level of shooter would benefit from this? I'm getting back into CMP/NRA highpower.

Thanks,

Clutch

 

[Howard Roark]

Bergers don't do well for some that try to use them in ARs. They tend to not tolerate jumping into the lands like the non-vld (SMK) bullets. They are more consistant if they are loaded into the lands. Pushing the rounds into the chamber and letting the bolt slam closed isn't condusive to preserving the seating depth to accomplish this. That said, I've seen a few people that have had good luck doing just that.

I believe that the 90gr bullets are too heavy to perform well out of an AR so I stick to the 80gr. SMK for the 600. I'm a high master so I guess this has worked for me.

 

[dzelenka]

Stay away from the 90s. They don't offer any advantage and can be difficult to find a good load. The Berger 80 VLD works either in the lands or jumped a pretty good amount. Berger recommends trying .040, .080 and .120 off of the lands in addition to at or into the lands.

80 Sierras are a great go to bullet. They are pretty easy to make work and are tolerant to jump.

Don't forget the Berger 82. It has a tangent ogive like a Sierra and are jump tolerant. but I find them to be a bit more accurate. They also have the same BC as the Berger 80 VLD. I am using the 82 over 24.1 gr of RL15 in Lapua cases with 7 1/2 primers. It holds really excellent elevation.

Dan

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

As Dan said they have been suggesting to load them off of the lands for a few years now.
When Berger was testing the 80 and 82 grain non vld bullets to try and see which they where going to go with had a few different shooters run them at the nationals. As I remember (getting old you know) I did not see much difference but the 82's seemed to be a better deal all the way around.

A good way to think of something for shooting a ar15 is try not to reinvent the wheel. There are plenty of loads that work well and Dan has given you a really good one just remember to load up to get where you want it to be.

The rule of thumb kinda on the difference between the 75 vld and the 80 vld is it is believed you get less elevation deviations when using the 80 vlds over the 75 vlds.
Most of my point losses at 600 yards in the presidents and leg match last year was due to brain fade and bleading points on stupid elevation lapses. did shoot a 98-3 in the presidents and 191-7 in the leg back at 600. not great but ok for having only shot 4 matches in 3 years before going last year.

If you wish to see the difference in what you will get between them is to play around with a box of 100 rounds of each.
Shoot the 80 smk's first followed by the 82 bergers. I think you will like the bergers.
Then switch to the berger vlds but be forwarned you will need to come down on the elevation when you shoot the vlds. the only real big difference between the 75 and 80 vlds is the speed you can push them.
I can shoot the same loads with my 75vlds at 600 yards and then shoot them in a palma match out to 1,000 yards with my service rifle with good results. got my long range master card using them ( yeah old point system).
The only difference between my loads and dans is the powder with the 82s.

Bottom line is a great shooter will do well with most any load. bullets are like cars lots of models to choice from but they all get you there.

So dan I see you are friends now with my room mate at perry. Stop by and say hi as I will look foward to meeting you.

 

[Howard Roark]

I find out now that at least one person that I know that's using Bergers with good results is using the 82s.

Dan, Is the load you list above for the 82 the same for the 80 SMK? I would like to substitute the 82 over my normal charge of N-150.

When running the numbers in the program it looks like at 600 yards there is about 3" less drop with the 82s and 2" less drift with a 10mph cross wind inside the 80 SMK.

 

[clutch]

Thank you for the input I'll try the 82 BT in my AR.

Clutch

 

[dzelenka]

Howard,

My 82 load is actually lower than what I was shooting for the 80 SMK, but I made 2 changes at the same time so I don't know what made the difference. I used to tshoot 24.6gr RL15 under an 80 SMK. I went to the 82 and changed from LC to Lapua brass (which is heavier) at the same time. I was unhappy with the elevation so I did some load testing. My rifles like 24.1 gr with the 82. It will shoot 1/2 MOA 5 shot groups at 300 (scoped) and holds really good elevation. I stopped there. One of my friends shoots 24.3 gr RL 15 under the 82 and also does great. I shoot a 1:7 Kreiger with a Wylde chamber. I am not sure what he is shooting.

They 80 SMK and 82 Berger are easier then the VLDs in my experience. I used to shoot a 90 JLK VLD over 25.9gr of N540. It was fast and held the wind really well, but it was finicky and there was always an off call shot or two in every string. I went back to the 80 SMK and began to get leg points (and medals). I went Distinguished with the 80 SMK, but I became a HM and made the P100 twice with the 82s. I guess the bottom line is they all work pretty well. Find a good load and work on your technique.

 

[dzelenka]

As Dan said they have been suggesting to load them off of the lands for a few years now.
When Berger was testing the 80 and 82 grain non vld bullets to try and see which they where going to go with had a few different shooters run them at the nationals. As I remember (getting old you know) I did not see much difference but the 82's seemed to be a better deal all the way around.

A good way to think of something for shooting a ar15 is try not to reinvent the wheel. There are plenty of loads that work well and Dan has given you a really good one just remember to load up to get where you want it to be.

The rule of thumb kinda on the difference between the 75 vld and the 80 vld is it is believed you get less elevation deviations when using the 80 vlds over the 75 vlds.
Most of my point losses at 600 yards in the presidents and leg match last year was due to brain fade and bleading points on stupid elevation lapses. did shoot a 98-3 in the presidents and 191-7 in the leg back at 600. not great but ok for having only shot 4 matches in 3 years before going last year.

If you wish to see the difference in what you will get between them is to play around with a box of 100 rounds of each.
Shoot the 80 smk's first followed by the 82 bergers. I think you will like the bergers.
Then switch to the berger vlds but be forwarned you will need to come down on the elevation when you shoot the vlds. the only real big difference between the 75 and 80 vlds is the speed you can push them.
I can shoot the same loads with my 75vlds at 600 yards and then shoot them in a palma match out to 1,000 yards with my service rifle with good results. got my long range master card using them ( yeah old point system).
The only difference between my loads and dans is the powder with the 82s.

Bottom line is a great shooter will do well with most any load. bullets are like cars lots of models to choice from but they all get you there.

So dan I see you are friends now with my room mate at perry. Stop by and say hi as I will look foward to meeting you.

Jon,

Who is your roomie?

Dan

 

[35 Whelen]

One of my High Power shooting buddies has a 16 or 17 year old son that competes widely on a state level as well as going to Camp Perry for the last two years. This boy already has a Master classification.
I have a 600 yd. range here at my house and he practices here prior to matches. He shoot 75 gr. Hornady A-Max's exclusively and does very, very well.
35W