atk
Member
Paul Gomez said:
Paul,
Would placing washers under the screws help any (I'm not sure if there's room by the pictures)? Have you been able to reproduce the problem with other copies of the holster, or could this one have been defective?
Blackhawk Serpa Holster -- A Damning Review
- Thread starter Paul Gomez
- Start date
- Status
Paul,
Would placing washers under the screws help any (I'm not sure if there's room by the pictures)? Have you been able to reproduce the problem with other copies of the holster, or could this one have been defective?
fastbolt
Member
Well, I see this as potentially both a training and an equipment issue. Not an uncommon combination ...
Some folks have often appeared willing to train to compensate for an equipment issue, and some folks often have appeared willing to attempt to substitute an equipment answer for a training issue.
The first time I saw one of the subject 'carbon fiber' retention holsters my first reaction (silent) was flimsy piece of cutsie tactical frippery (frippery >noun (pl. fripperies) 1 showy or unnecessary ornament. 2 a tawdry or frivolous thing. -ORIGIN Old French freperie 'second-hand clothes', from frepe 'rag'.) No knee-jerk prejudice against tactical gewgaws on my part, huh?
(gewgaw >noun a showy thing, especially one that is useless or worthless. -ORIGIN of unknown origin.) Relax, just kidding ...
I didn't tell the owner that, of course. He's not 'new' to the field in some respects. Besides, other folk's personal equipment preferences aren't necessarily always my business. His choice ... and his responsibility if the consequences don’t match his expectations.
Joking aside ... (and notwithstanding my personal thoughts and concerns regarding increased multitasking of my trigger finger) ... one of my initial concerns upon cursory examination was the retention release itself. It appeared a bit exposed in some respects, and I wondered about its resistence to interference from foreign objects, as well as its durability. I was curious to see how it functioned in frequent usage, especially since our range has a lot of loose sand. I’ll be watching the fellow with the new holster to see how things fare if his holster is directly exposed, in some manner or other, to the sandy environment. You know how sand can be ...
I see a lot of beat up holsters. More duty holsters than plainclothes holsters, granted, but I've encountered my fair share of daily activities over the years that offered some opportunity for my various plainclothes holsters to be exposed to abuse. It happens.
I personally prefer to use a holster which does not require that I train my trigger finger to do something other than remain off the trigger until I decide to shoot, and then properly manipulate the trigger when I decide to shoot. That's just my preference. The potential for hand (and finger) confusion can be enough of a concern in stressful situations, to my personal thinking, without throwing a new task at my trigger finger. Just my thoughts, though, and I'm nobody's expert.
FWIW, when I was new to the business, and carried a revolver, I never felt attracted to the older clamshell revolver holsters which required the trigger finger depress a button to release them, either. Before someone objects to my mention of the clamshells, because their activating method presented a direct exposure of the trigger finger to the trigger ... I realize that, and I only mention them because I didn’t like them for their requiring some action of my trigger finger other than remaining clear of the trigger guard, or functioning the trigger.
I think plastic/synthetic and leather holsters each have their individual weaknesses & strengths, with some occasional variability due to different designs. Nature of things. I've had the occasional quality leather holster stretch and lose proper retention over time, or be made slightly off proper tolerance ... and I've had a quality kydex holster experience total failure after being subjected to an impact that I didn't expect would break it apart.
Anyhow, as I was walking by one of the holster displays in a uniform store the other day I happened to notice the Blackhawk holster section. I remembered the holster the other fellow had bought, and it occurred to me that I might pick one up for some personal testing in a controlled environment. Might as well see what all the fuss was about ...
I bought the plain one, though, without the 'carbon fiber' appearance ... and without the retention lever. I just couldn't bring myself to get one with the lever. Sorry. I wanted to check out the basic holster construction and durability without bothering with the retention lever ... which I just don't feel drawn to, anyway, and which doesn’t fit my training. One thing at a time. Maybe later ...
As I was paying for it the store person happened to mention to me that they'd heard from some customers that the paddle was flimsy. I didn't bother to ask for details of what they'd heard, since I was buying it to check it out for myself, anyway. I was further told by the store employee, however, that if I had any problems with mine that I should probably call Blackhawk, because they'd heard from some customers that there was a new, heavier duty paddle available.
Everyone should have some reasonable familiarity (preferably meaning some type of training and experience) with their equipment, as well as confidence in & with it ... both in it's design, construction, reliability & durabilty, as well as in their ability to properly use it under the anticipated circumstances & conditions for which its intended, right?
I'll try this holster in a controlled environment for a while ... and will carefully watch the owner of the other one equipped with the retention lever, as well.
It's just a piece of equipment, you know ... not a family member or a reflection on a personal character trait or attribute. No need for defensive reactions about someone else's comments and thoughts.
The careful development and consideration of objective information can be very useful.
Some folks have often appeared willing to train to compensate for an equipment issue, and some folks often have appeared willing to attempt to substitute an equipment answer for a training issue.
The first time I saw one of the subject 'carbon fiber' retention holsters my first reaction (silent) was flimsy piece of cutsie tactical frippery (frippery >noun (pl. fripperies) 1 showy or unnecessary ornament. 2 a tawdry or frivolous thing. -ORIGIN Old French freperie 'second-hand clothes', from frepe 'rag'.) No knee-jerk prejudice against tactical gewgaws on my part, huh?
(gewgaw >noun a showy thing, especially one that is useless or worthless. -ORIGIN of unknown origin.) Relax, just kidding ...I didn't tell the owner that, of course. He's not 'new' to the field in some respects. Besides, other folk's personal equipment preferences aren't necessarily always my business. His choice ... and his responsibility if the consequences don’t match his expectations.
Joking aside ... (and notwithstanding my personal thoughts and concerns regarding increased multitasking of my trigger finger) ... one of my initial concerns upon cursory examination was the retention release itself. It appeared a bit exposed in some respects, and I wondered about its resistence to interference from foreign objects, as well as its durability. I was curious to see how it functioned in frequent usage, especially since our range has a lot of loose sand. I’ll be watching the fellow with the new holster to see how things fare if his holster is directly exposed, in some manner or other, to the sandy environment. You know how sand can be ...
I see a lot of beat up holsters. More duty holsters than plainclothes holsters, granted, but I've encountered my fair share of daily activities over the years that offered some opportunity for my various plainclothes holsters to be exposed to abuse. It happens.
I personally prefer to use a holster which does not require that I train my trigger finger to do something other than remain off the trigger until I decide to shoot, and then properly manipulate the trigger when I decide to shoot. That's just my preference. The potential for hand (and finger) confusion can be enough of a concern in stressful situations, to my personal thinking, without throwing a new task at my trigger finger. Just my thoughts, though, and I'm nobody's expert.
FWIW, when I was new to the business, and carried a revolver, I never felt attracted to the older clamshell revolver holsters which required the trigger finger depress a button to release them, either. Before someone objects to my mention of the clamshells, because their activating method presented a direct exposure of the trigger finger to the trigger ... I realize that, and I only mention them because I didn’t like them for their requiring some action of my trigger finger other than remaining clear of the trigger guard, or functioning the trigger.
I think plastic/synthetic and leather holsters each have their individual weaknesses & strengths, with some occasional variability due to different designs. Nature of things. I've had the occasional quality leather holster stretch and lose proper retention over time, or be made slightly off proper tolerance ... and I've had a quality kydex holster experience total failure after being subjected to an impact that I didn't expect would break it apart.
Anyhow, as I was walking by one of the holster displays in a uniform store the other day I happened to notice the Blackhawk holster section. I remembered the holster the other fellow had bought, and it occurred to me that I might pick one up for some personal testing in a controlled environment. Might as well see what all the fuss was about ...
I bought the plain one, though, without the 'carbon fiber' appearance ... and without the retention lever. I just couldn't bring myself to get one with the lever. Sorry. I wanted to check out the basic holster construction and durability without bothering with the retention lever ... which I just don't feel drawn to, anyway, and which doesn’t fit my training. One thing at a time. Maybe later ...
As I was paying for it the store person happened to mention to me that they'd heard from some customers that the paddle was flimsy. I didn't bother to ask for details of what they'd heard, since I was buying it to check it out for myself, anyway. I was further told by the store employee, however, that if I had any problems with mine that I should probably call Blackhawk, because they'd heard from some customers that there was a new, heavier duty paddle available.
Everyone should have some reasonable familiarity (preferably meaning some type of training and experience) with their equipment, as well as confidence in & with it ... both in it's design, construction, reliability & durabilty, as well as in their ability to properly use it under the anticipated circumstances & conditions for which its intended, right?
I'll try this holster in a controlled environment for a while ... and will carefully watch the owner of the other one equipped with the retention lever, as well.
It's just a piece of equipment, you know ... not a family member or a reflection on a personal character trait or attribute. No need for defensive reactions about someone else's comments and thoughts.
The careful development and consideration of objective information can be very useful.
Johnny_Yuma
Member
milesmilitis:
Nice review on br.com. You ever been a DI? You write like you've done some teaching.
BTW, your weapon is beat!
. My duty Sig was beat to pieces when I had to turn it back in (not as bad as your Beretta, though). People at the civillian range I frequent would just look at it and turn funny shades of green. A duty weapon OUGHT to have some wear and tear!
milesmilitis said:
Nice review on br.com. You ever been a DI? You write like you've done some teaching.
BTW, your weapon is beat!
. My duty Sig was beat to pieces when I had to turn it back in (not as bad as your Beretta, though). People at the civillian range I frequent would just look at it and turn funny shades of green. A duty weapon OUGHT to have some wear and tear!CombatArmsUSAF
Member
Miles- Nice review, how long have you had the holster now?
milesmilitis
Member
Johnny_Yuma said:Nice review on br.com. You ever been a DI? You write like you've done some teaching.
BTW, your weapon is beat!
Nope, never been a Drill Sgt/Drill Instructor. My parents both teach, I guess thats where it comes from.
Most of my issue weapons are beat pretty bad. Both my M9 and M4 have seen two combat tours, which has a tendency to mess up your finish
It doesnt help that we go out just about everyday. Despite being beat to crap, they function flawlessly. CombatArmsUSAF said:
I've had the Tactical SERPA almost a month now. I'll be heading back home shortly and will do a follow up once I get back to the states.
-milesmilitis
Johnny_Yuma
Member
Miles
I usually work in street clothes and carry the CQC Serpa. It's the same holster body as the Tactical but mounted on a close riding belt or paddle platform (mine's a belt - I hate paddles). I was thinking about getting a Tactical rig for warrant service - your review has pretty much convinced me now. Please post a final after-action report on the Serpa when you get back.
Keep your head down and come home safe. At least you'll be getting out before winter!
Take care,
Johnny
I usually work in street clothes and carry the CQC Serpa. It's the same holster body as the Tactical but mounted on a close riding belt or paddle platform (mine's a belt - I hate paddles). I was thinking about getting a Tactical rig for warrant service - your review has pretty much convinced me now. Please post a final after-action report on the Serpa when you get back.
Keep your head down and come home safe. At least you'll be getting out before winter!
Take care,
Johnny
Paul Gomez
Member In Memoriam
CPerdue
Member
I gather that there have been revisions to the design ... are there any distinguishing marks to identify versions?
boredelmo
member
I tried one at my local carters. I could not get the damn thing to work nearly as fast or well as i wanted. Went with an accumold.
rough rider
Member
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2006
- Messages
- 26
no problems with a serpa here either
7677
Member
The last course I taught we had 4 out of 5 student's Serpas go down as the pin that holds the retention button in place come loose and fell out.
I like my Serpa, tho.I have and use this holster without any problems for my xd45. As another xd user pointed out, my index finger rides on the slide frame upon drawing. If you can't draw and keep your finger off the trigger, get a new holster. As for me, I have no problems with the holster.
Rob Pincus
Member
We have been using these holsters extensively at Valhalla for the past 18 months and we also provide them as part of a low profile deployment package to military special operations personnel who train with us. Many of our students have also used them over the past 2 years. When used properly, I find the SERPA design to be safe, effective and one of hte most efficient mechanical retention devices on the market.
Here's the kicker: We've had a ND with a SERPA holster on our range. We have it on video. It was a two part problem: 1 major part operator error (in the hands of someone who is an adjunct instructor with another well known school that has been in business for over a decade) and 1 part incompatible parts. The SERPA design is NOT SAFE to use with a Glock that has a LaserMax guide rod installed. this has been communicated to and acknowledged by Blackhawk and LaserMax and I believe that both companies are putting out a warning in regard to the issue. Blackhawk has also instituted design changes that are supposed to have cured this problem, but I cannot verify that at this time.
I've seen a lot of ND's for what at first glance seems like a lot of reasons..... at the end of the day it just about always comes down to Operator Error: Finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be (to include "I thought the gun was unloaded" moments.
Would you say that an ND while decocking a Sig was caused by a faulty design or was it caused by improperly leaving your finger on the trigger while decocking?? Of course, it would be the latter.... improperly putting your finger on the trigger while drawing or reholstering (or drawing your gun at an angle or in a way that allows such to happen) with ANY holster is negligent.
As always: know your gear, use it properly.
Here's the kicker: We've had a ND with a SERPA holster on our range. We have it on video. It was a two part problem: 1 major part operator error (in the hands of someone who is an adjunct instructor with another well known school that has been in business for over a decade) and 1 part incompatible parts. The SERPA design is NOT SAFE to use with a Glock that has a LaserMax guide rod installed. this has been communicated to and acknowledged by Blackhawk and LaserMax and I believe that both companies are putting out a warning in regard to the issue. Blackhawk has also instituted design changes that are supposed to have cured this problem, but I cannot verify that at this time.
I've seen a lot of ND's for what at first glance seems like a lot of reasons..... at the end of the day it just about always comes down to Operator Error: Finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be (to include "I thought the gun was unloaded" moments.
Would you say that an ND while decocking a Sig was caused by a faulty design or was it caused by improperly leaving your finger on the trigger while decocking?? Of course, it would be the latter.... improperly putting your finger on the trigger while drawing or reholstering (or drawing your gun at an angle or in a way that allows such to happen) with ANY holster is negligent.
As always: know your gear, use it properly.
Last edited:
Paul Gomez
Member In Memoriam
entropy
Member
I'll keep using my CQC SERPA with my RIA M1911. AFter no small amount of practice, I can draw smoothly, without my booger hook on the bang switch-not quite as fast as I'd like yet, though.
milesmilitis, well written review!
Paul Gomez, I'll take your information underadvisement.
I wish they made a CQC SERPA for my Colt Cobra.
milesmilitis, well written review!
Paul Gomez, I'll take your information underadvisement.
I wish they made a CQC SERPA for my Colt Cobra.
It all boils down to one thing.
PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. You do this so that under stress you do not have to think about how your finger is hitting the release. You just do it because you PRACTICE.
BTW, putting on a uniform every day is a commitment you make and you are willing the inherent risk being a LEO. Be thankful every night that you climb into bed and nobody got hurt.
PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. You do this so that under stress you do not have to think about how your finger is hitting the release. You just do it because you PRACTICE.
BTW, putting on a uniform every day is a commitment you make and you are willing the inherent risk being a LEO. Be thankful every night that you climb into bed and nobody got hurt.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
C'mon, folks. Let the dead threads stay dead. Start a new one on the topic and link to the old one if needed...
lpl
lpl
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