Border Patrol Ballistics Testing?

[Mr_Flintstone]

I recently read about the Border Patrol ballistics testing of the early 90s. I can't find much info at all except a few articles stating that they considered penetration in ballistics gel from 9" to 12" to be optimal. This runs contrary to FBI tests that put 12" as a bare minimum.

Does anyone have information about this, or can someone direct me to somewhere on the Internet to read about it?

 

[Sunray]

The Border Patrol isn't any more of a firearms ballistics authority than the FBI. They both use whatever is the least expensive.

 

[lemaymiami]

Even so.. what their research was based on and whatever the results they found might actually be of interest. If anyone can come up with that info I'll be interested in reading it. Remember if the basic research is valid - it won't matter what if any conclusions the sponsoring agency came up with - or what they actually did with those conclusions. You're still going to be the one deciding whether the info is valid for your purposes...

This is kind of like pointing out that both the Marines and the Army have the same objectives - you can be sure, though, that they'll go about it quite differently...

 

[fastbolt]

I vaguely remember their FTU liked the lighter bullet weight Magnum revolver loads, and it was mentioned they considered 9-10" penetration depth in the gel test medium of the time to be adequate, based upon looking at how their successful duty caliber/load selections performed when tested in gel scenarios. It was the FBI's 12"-18" penetration range which was seeing the most acceptance back at the end of the 80's and into the 90's.

That was a long time ago, though, and I can't think of any notes I have left over which might mention the BP/Customs ammo testing and selection.

In subsequent years they adopted 155gr .40 loads, and then the reduced velocity 135gr .40 load (1200fps, +/- 40fps), but nowadays they're using the same 180gr .40 bullet weights as most other major LE/gov agencies.

 

[230RN]

....

This is kind of like pointing out that both the Marines and the Army have the same objectives - you can be sure, though, that they'll go about it quite differently...

Sorry for the interruption, but that amused me. See my avatar.

Please continue.

Terry, 230RN

 

[GRIZ22]

The Border Patrol isn't any more of a firearms ballistics authority than the FBI. They both use whatever is the least expensive.

Not really. Federal agencies determine what criteria they want the ammo to meet. If the ammo meets the criteria it goes on the approved list. The pricing varies but it's the agency or even the individual office that determines what is bought. Not necessarily the cheapest but sometimes it is. You get so much for an ammo budget. I use to order about one third duty ammo (jhp) and two thirds practice ammo. I can't remember the prices but for 9mm I could get 5 cases of NATO 9mm fmj for the price of 3 cases of jhp. We'd have a lot more ammo to practice with that way.

 

[lemaymiami]

Glad you enjoyed the comparison 230... I worked as a cop with a fair number of Vietnam vets that were marines - great guys all... Me, I was in the Army - and in the rear with the gear -not so far away... I did miss them when the marines left (1971) and the only folks between me and the Z were arvns...

 

[alientrainwreck]

I was a nation marshal for 16 years until the night I got in a gunfight and got shot twice. Anyway everyone carried either Federal Hydrashock or Remington golden sabre, the caliber was whatever you liked as long as the chief approved it same with the manufacturer of the weapon there were many brand names that were not allowed. I carried a Sig 226 and a little S&W j frame 38spl on my ankle and in my unit (car) I had a full auto MP-5 and because I was specialist the designated marksman I had a hr precision .308 and a AR-15 In double rifle case in the trunk along with a lot of things they probably don't allow now days.

 

[Dog Soldier]

The USBP has been a traditional proving ground for weapons. The USBP Blue Team for years set the standard for combat shooting tactics. However like most police agencies they were forced to reduce their public exposure. What would Bill Jordon think?

http://www.guns.com/2015/09/09/winchester-ammo-picks-up-25-million-contract-with-border-patrol/

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I used to have the Border Patrol terminal performance criteria, philosophy, and test methodology published on my website (firearmstactical.com) but I shut down the website last summer as the info was stale and I didn't have the time to devote to it like used to. I believe the last Marshall-Sanow Stopping Power book has a chapter addressing the now obsolete INS-BP stuff.

When the chief of the INS NFU, John Jacobs, a proponent of energy transfer, retired and his acolytes moved on INS adopted the FBI's terminal performance criteria, which is based on informed medical opinion and has been proved in the three decades it's been in use.

Jacobs also authored a chapter in Marshall's last book. If you're that interested I suggest you get a copy.

 

[pbearperry]

I was a nation marshal for 16 years until the night I got in a gunfight and got shot twice. Anyway everyone carried either Federal Hydrashock or Remington golden sabre, the caliber was whatever you liked as long as the chief approved it same with the manufacturer of the weapon there were many brand names that were not allowed. I carried a Sig 226 and a little S&W j frame 38spl on my ankle and in my unit (car) I had a full auto MP-5 and because I was specialist the designated marksman I had a hr precision .308 and a AR-15 In double rifle case in the trunk along with a lot of things they probably don't allow now days.

Glad you survived this.

 

[Dog Soldier]

The current off duty handgun for ICE Agents is a Glock 9MM. It is a very small Glock? Not familiar with the Glock models.

 

[Sam1911]

Ok, a lot of content has been deleted here because we somehow or another wandered off into the weeds and started discussing immigration policy and enforcement instead of the GUN RELATED question asked which was about ballistics testing done by a certain agency.

Please remember where you are and keep strictly on topic. Thank you.

 

[alientrainwreck]

Thanks pbearpeer it sure did some damage at least I can walk now that took a long time. Funny thing is that the ammo and the bullets that were recovered from the perp's gun and from my vehicles seat the ones that passed through my body were exactly what I was shooting 124gr Hydrashock. I have them and they expanded perfectly ,just like the pictures.

 

[GRIZ22]

Ok, a lot of content has been deleted here because we somehow or another wandered off into the weeds and started discussing immigration policy and enforcement instead of the GUN RELATED question asked which was about ballistics testing done by a certain agency.

Please remember where you are and keep strictly on topic. Thank you.

Thank you Sam

 

[Destructo6]

The Border Patrol isn't any more of a firearms ballistics authority than the FBI. They both use whatever is the least expensive.

So, what is the acceptable ballistic authority? If it was purely about cost, the BP would have gone from 357 Magnum revolvers to 9mm, but they went to .40 S&W, far more expensive than 9mm, in 1996.

More recently, the BP has considered 9mm, both due to cost savings and increased magazine capacity.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

So, what is the acceptable ballistic authority? If it was purely about cost, the BP would have gone from 357 Magnum revolvers to 9mm, but they went to .40 S&W, far more expensive than 9mm, in 1996.

That's because the .40 will kill someone 0.043 deader than a .357. A 9mm results in someone being 0.003 less dead.

But really, I think it probably has something to do with .40 having more energy than the 9mm, and holding more rounds and being easier to reload than the .357; kind of a compromise if you will.

Not to hijack my own thread, but I never really saw the need for a .40 S&W. Some people say it has a higher velocity and more energy than a .45, but that only holds true when we compare 165 gr or 180 gr .40s to 230 gr .45s. When you look at comparable weight .45s, the numbers are almost identical to the .40s. Ex. 165 gr Hydra-Shok .40 from a 5 inch barrel goes 1038 fps - 165 gr Hydra-Shok .45 from a 5 inch barrel goes 1033 fps. Add to that the fact that .45 can a +P rating for added velocity, and .40 is pretty much already at the max pressure its capable of without exploding in its standard pressure rounds. But I digress... let the flames commence.

 

[alientrainwreck]

When I was a USMS US marshal The wanted us to all carry 9mm, it's a federal thing. I couldn't count how many times we had shooting instructor's teaching how to control your pistol in a rapid fire style and also the 9mm was good at controlled ricochet aiming and hits most people don't now this ricochet shooting methods. Their were lot's of factors that went in to the 9mm decision again it's Federal, it don't mean the cop up the road has to carry a 9mm he can carry probably anything he wants. Anyway I have seen and been involved in a number of shooting's and I've seen many survivors from 40's and 45's but most died from the 9mm, I believe it has everything to do with velocity and bullet shape, shooter friendly for fast fire accuracy and women friendly. Then the medical examiner's are giving what they think. And maybe range of killing power. I remember once a man being killed by 1shot at 80 yards with the 9mm. I Could go on and on about it But I am sure they did their homework before the switch of caliber again federal like the military not state law. I now when I shoot my pistol's now I still double Tap every time. Also should read on ricochet shooting could be valuable at some time. But who am I anymore, just a hillbilly that lives in the woods with to many guns.

 

[Destructo6]

Found this:

NCJRS Abstract

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NCJ Number: NCJ 182930
Title: New Test Protocol for Border Patrol Ammo
Author(s): Ed Sanow
Journal: Law and Order Volume:48 Issue:4 Dated:April 2000 Pages:127 to 130
Date Published: 04/2000
Page Count: 4
Annotation: This article describes the Immigration and Naturalization Service/National Firearms Unit (INS/NFU) protocol for testing border patrol ammunition that may have been used in an officer-involved shooting.
Abstract: The FBI protocol was the starting point for a Ballistic Test Protocol Symposium in 1998. The INS/NFU regards the heavy clothing test as the most significant test in the series and weighted the test protocol accordingly. The INS/NFU estimates that 40 percent of the shootings by border patrol officers involve heavily clothed subjects. Roughly 30 percent of the shootings are against windshields, as aliens or alien smugglers try to run down INS officers or ram through inspection points. This auto glass test is the most severe test that can reasonably be applied to a small-arms projectile. The INS/NFU does not weigh this test as heavily because it might encourage the development of barrier-piercing projectiles at the expense of designs specifically intended to cause immediate incapacitation of a suspect under other circumstances. The INS/NFU rated its five test phases with a 30-percent weighing on bare gelatin, a 50-percent weighing on heavily clothed gelatin, and a 20-percent weighing on the gelatin after auto glass.
Main Term(s): Police use of deadly force
Index Term(s): Testing and measurement ; Ammunition ; Ballistics ; Immigration Naturalization Service ; Border control
Sale Source: NCJRS Photocopy Services
Box 6000
Rockville, MD 20849-6000
United States of America
Type: Test/Measurement
Country: United States of America
Language: English

To cite this abstract, use the following link:
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=182930

* A link to the full-text document is provided whenever possible. For documents not available online, a link to the publisher's web site is provided.

Found it here:
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=182930

The full report might be a good lead.