Building resistance to OC sprays?

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Preacherman

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I'd like to hear some input from those who know more about OC sprays and similar defensive tools.

At the prison where I work, there are some inmates who seem to have developed a resistance to this stuff over time. Most of our inmates will be incapacitated by a good in-the-face spray with this stuff, but some of them seem to shake it off very quickly. Two of them actually dare guards to spray them - I've even seen one open his mouth and INHALE the stuff during a confrontation! It's pretty scary to see these guys do that. Our armory people assure us that we're using the strongest spray available, and that it's just an unfortunate fact of life that some people are less susceptible to OC sprays and/or can build up a resistance to it if they're sprayed often enough.

Can anyone confirm this? Any other incidents to verify that the same thing can happen "on the street"?
 
I"m not sure that you develop a resistance but there are certainly those who are definitely immune to the stuff. I've heard that from reliable sources. But of course that goes for all defense systems ,tasers guns and anything else. For one thing drugs can have a great effect on the nervous system and can make people immune to things like stopping power.
 
I've never heard on an actual case of someone becoming resistant to OC spray (Unless you count the scene in Under Siege II), but I have read where with practice, you can still function effectively regardless of being sprayed.
I guess it is like Tasers/Stun Guns. Some folks drop like a rock, some smile at you and keep on coming.
 
Twice in my life I randomly came into conact with this guy (when we were both in high school) who had seemingly developed a pretty good resistance to electricity. He seemed pretty obsessed with electricity as the first time I met him he was carrying around an electric starter that came off of a gas grill that generated electricity. He was walking around just constantly shocking himself with it. I thought that was kind of strange at the time. I happened to come across the guy at a weekend retreat about two years later and he had graduated to a stun gun. The blue spark kind. Yeah, I know those kind of have a rep for often being ineffective but this guy had one and was now constantly shocking himself with that. When he'd shock himself it would seem to have no effect but I noticed later that his arm and leg were both twitching slightly but uncontrollably.

Weird guy...I was leary to be around him not just because of his strange behavior (although that contributed) but because of a phobia I have of electricity most likely due to events that occured as a child.

brad cook
 
I don't believe anyone builds resistance to OC over time. Drink a bottle of Tabasco daily for a month and tell us if it gets any cooler as time progresses.
What likely happens is that with enough experiences of being sprayed or catching backblasts is that you become more adept at functioning through the effects. That's one of the reasons police are required to be sprayed for their initial certifications.
Like any other weapons system, OC has it's weakness. I have found that cold weather can and will delay effects for several seconds or more. Until they blink.
Part of OC's effectiveness lies in the fact that the combination of burning pain, breathing difficulty, and blindness, induces panic on the person sprayed causing them to forget the activity they were previously engaged in and concentrate on their own survival. This allows officers the advantage to gain physical control. If one has been exposed enough times, the panic factor is removed.
 
I believe that a person can build an immunity to OC. The nerves become accustomed to the sensations and the reaction is diminished.

Being somewhat fond of hot sauces, tobasco has become rather bland after a while. Try Dave's Insanity sauce, three drops applied with a toothpick will render a bowl of chille inedible to most people. It will cause blisters if it hits your lips instead of your mouth. I could eat sauces that would probably hurt someone who isn't used to it.

I think the inmates are asking for their 'booster shots' of spray to keep them in shape. Kind of the mentality of who can stand the most pain and who's the toughest bad guy. You're right about it being kind of scary, if that buy ever gets out of control, he'll probably just laugh when he's sprayed with OC.
 
I know several individuals who claim such immunity/resistance. I have seen it on police carcam tape.

In talking with them, I believe it is more a function of keeping a level head and being in that situation before and fighting through the pain, rather than developed physical immunity.
 
As usual, El Tejon got it:).

I've been involved in OC training since 1997 and I've, personnally, never come in contact with anyone who was "immune" to it. I have heard from persons whom I trust that there are a certain percentage of people that it simply will not effect, but with the majority of people you will get some effect. The degree of effect is variable based on several factors (where'd you hit then, quality & design of the product, mental state of the person being sprayed, etc). I've been sprayed numerous times in training and in "the real world". It never ceases to suck mightily, but it definitely doesn't incapitate me like it used to. Part of that is because I know what's going on. I've been through it before. Part of it is knowing how to mitigate the effects when you sigure out what's happening.

Preacherman, when you spray the prisoners are the eyes shutting and they are opening them quickly or is there a total lack of reaction? Also, what product are ya'll using? I know around Lafayette they like to use DefTec for some reason while around here it's Freeze Plus P.

Gomez
 
Scottgun, try Inner Beauty, it's made with Scottish Bonnets:evil:

The label says, "keep away from dogs, children, and open flame"
 
Paul, I'm not permitted to say what we use - departmental regulations, and all that. However, the armorers assure me that it's the strongest stuff they can get.

I've heard good things about Fox Labs OC being stronger/hotter/more disabling than products from other manufacturers. Can anyone confirm this?
 
Fox Labs is good stuff. It's good stuff not because of how hot it is, rather because of the carrier that they use and the quality of the OC (very refined). The Scoville Content of Fox 2% 5.3million SHU is only 106,000 compared to 100,000 for a 5% 2million SHU or 200,000 for a 10% 2million SHU product.

People tend to get wrapped up around SHUs without understanding exactly what makes a good OC product good. I'm not trying to talk down to anyone here, so please don't be offended. (Long night & my head is killing me.)

--------------------------

OC products are completely unregulated. There is a lot of garbage on the market. People who should know better, sometimes don't. The LSP went to an inferior product a year or so ago because someone thought they knew what they needed and didn't do proper research.

The potential effectiveness of an OC product is related to three or four basic things.

1. How hot is the base Oleoresin Capsicum (OC)? This is the oily goo that hurts.:) The "hotness" of the OC is measured by a method known as HPLC (high performance liquid chromatography). The measurement is expressed in Scoville Heat Units (SHUs).

2. What is the carrier being used? The carrier is what is mixed with the OC to dilute it so that it can be sprayed/aerosolized. Some products use water. Some use alcohol. Some use 134a (the same thing used in asthma inhalers and air conditioners). Some use trichloroethane. Some carriers reduce the effectiveness of the OC (water), some have benefits (alcohol, trichlor) and some are neutral (134a).

3. What is the propellant? Some cans use nitrogen, others carbon dioxide. Some use isobutane, others use 134a (some will use 134a for both functions too).

4. What is the pattern of dispersal? Some patterns allow a better atomization effect, which increases the rapidity of effects but also tends to increase the area contamination. Some are tighter (streams) and rely more on pain/eyes slamming shut,etc rather than on inhibiting ventalatory processes.

Given the environment, I'd suggest something along the lines of Phase IV foam. It's a 10% 2million product that sprays as a foam but begins to atomize almost immediately upon contact.

----------------------------

Freeze Plus P uses a 1:1 ratio of CS and OC. The OC is a 2 million SHU base. The percentage is 1% which means that the Scoville Content is a very disappointing 20,000. The CS is really the primary agent in Freeze +P. The manufactor utilizes isobutane as the propellant and, I believe, alcohol for the carrier. However, they may use a different carrier for the Freeze +P line.

Def Tec/First Defense 10% OC spray is actually a 10% 500,000SHU product. Scoville Content is again very disappointing at 50,000. As I recall, they use carbon dioxide for the propellant and soy oil for the carrier. They love to tell you that their products "use all food grade ingrediants" for some reason.

Hope this of interest ,

Gomez:banghead: (Now, where's that bottle of advil)
 
NO.

The flammability issue comes from sprays that use alcohol as a carrier. If you hose (use excessive spray, so that the OC and carrier are actually pooling on them) someone with OC in an alcohol based carrier and then a stun gun or taser (or some other ignition source) comes into contact with the person before the alcohol has had time to evaporate there exists the possibilty of ignition.

Realize that "nonflammable" does not mean "really not flammable" when it is encountered on OC products. The test for flammability has the product being sprayed through a candle flame. If the flame does not flare up, the product is considered nonflammable. You can take an alcohol-based product and spray it through the flame and not get flare-up. That doesn't mean that alcohol is nonflammable in real terms, just nonflammable according to the standards. Find out what the carrier and propellant are if you are concerned about flammability. Ask for an MSDS. Every reputable maker provides them upon request.

Gomez
 
That's a great book, but Ross makes a couple of errors.

They were dumping CS (military tear gas) grenades and pumping CS into the compound in Waco, not OC. The grenades have an open flame when they ignite and the cans can get pretty hot. CS is particulate matter (very fine crystals), not actually a gas. CS also has established lethality limits, etc same as any other manufactured chemical so in many ways it's much more dangerous than OC. Of course, when we're talking grenades and generators we're talking a much larger scale than personnal sprays.:)

CS in a personnal spray is pretty unimpressive due to the amount of time that it takes for it to have effects (5 - 10 seconds generally).
 
I am not aware of CS powder being flammable. If enough CS were dumped into an enclosed structure (thereby forcing oxygen out) it could, theoretically, prevent fire from spreading. Although, a lethal concentration would result. I believe the issues with the CS grenades used at Waco had to do with the heat of the expended munitions (in the case of the 40mm M651 CS rounds) and the open flame of the hand grenade-type CS units at the point of ignition. It wasn't the CS that caused the fire, so much as it was by-products of the delivery systems used.

Preacherman: Seem to have hijacked the thread. Sorry.

Gomez
 
Years ago, just a whiff of red pepper would have tears streaming from my eyes. Today, I can eat go through cans of it.

Friend of mine goes through one of the large bottles of Tabasco every week. But just for flavor...she adds other hot sauces as Tabasco isn't hot to her anymore.

I don't know if you can develop a resistance to OC. I do know you can develop an allergy to it and go into anaphylactic shock if it hits you.

I have heard that some herpetologists inoculated themselves with increasing concentrations of various snake venoms...starting with very minute amounts. It would make them as sick as a dog. Then they'd recover and do it again:rolleyes: But the day came when they were bit by "non-survivable" species and lived. If you can become resistant to cobra venom, I see no reason you cannot become resistant to OC.

On the other hand, there's a maximum security state prison just up the road from where I work. They bring us all their emergencies. In the last year or two the state has opened a dedicated medical prison so we don't see as many as we once did. Anyway, they had this young inmate with severe asthma. Anytime they used OC anywhere in his cellblock, they'd bring him in on the verge of status asthmaticus. Life threatening. Finally, the ER doctor got tired of it and wrote in the man's medical record, that the use of OC anywhere around this man constituted lethal force against him.
He was transferred to a medical facility immediately.
 
I am pretty sure you can build up a resistance to stuff like this. When I was in the military, we had to undergo anual protective mask testing. Part of the proceedure was to go in a cinder block building with your protective mask on. You stood around, did jumping jacks etc. then you had to remove your mask in a room full of CS gas to show that your mask was working. The first time I did it, in basic I was all but incapacitated. I couldn't see, snot was running from my nose to the ground, I couldn't see. After being exposed to it over and over by both grenades and the smoke house, it got to the point where it didn't bother me a whole lot. Rumor had it that they guys that worked in the smoke house were immune to it, along with the drill sergents.
As a civilan several years later, and working as a paramedic, I often voluntered to treat and transport patients that had been pepper sprayed because it didn't seem to bother me, although my partners were gasping for air just from being near the guy.
I don't know if this still applies or not. I am seldom around people that are pepper sprayed anymore. Senority has it's advantages.
 
I thought that prison guards were trained to still function while exposed to CS and OC.

If this is true for the guards, I'd imagine that prisoners/BGs can become accustomed to them as well.

I remember reading an interview once with a latino gangbanger who commented that he has learned to keep fighting through his tears.
 
Heh, back in 1974 when I took my gas mask off in the smokehouse...I was supposed to say my name, rank, and serial number before exiting. If they'd held me to that, I'd be there yet. I couldn't get the first syllable of my first name out.:D
 
I loved the smokehouse, before that I'd had a head cold for 5 weeks of boot camp. As a company we had decided to talk in ranks before we got there so we spent extra time in there as well.

I have some Mace brand OC foam and combo OC CS sprays that are almost out of date, as soon as I have a digital video camera and some help I want to try them out on myself. I think I'll have a simple IPSC scenario set up to where I can move a ways and retrieve my unloaded gun, load it up and then shoot the course on the clock. I maintain that I can regain function quickly. We'll see.
 
I guess the question can be answered in a couple of different ways.

When I saw "building resistance" I read "building immunity".

The physical effects of OC exposure are not mitigated by repeat exposure. Blepharospasm (eyelids slamming shut) still occur in most people. Burning sensation to exposed skin still occurs. Constriction of affected mucus membranes still occurs.

What is mitigated are the psychological effects. Having been exposed to OC previously, you know that you are not "really blind", you know that the pain will "go away", you know that you can continue to fight. That is why it is so important to be exposed to OC in training and have tasks to complete (fighting an aggressor, shooting a course of fire, etc) after exposure. That's also why it's important to have force options if/when OC does not have the desired effect.

It's another example of why and how mindset is so important in the fight.
 
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I guess it is just mindset. You don't fear it, so you remain calm and take a little pain while you go on about your business.
 
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