Bullet depth, longer always better?

[Bayourambler]

I'm brand new to reloading , so have mercy!! I've read countless times about bullet depth and "finding the lands" on your rifle. I want to use my rifle to hunt and need my rounds to cycle in the mag, so I seat my bullets as long as possible . Still they are way off the the lands. My question is , should I stick with this length, or work my way deeper closer to the c.o.a.l recommended? Is it possible to get better results even farther from the rifling?

 

[Walkalong]

Load them to fit the mag and work up a good load that gives acceptable velocity and accuracy. For hunting they need to be 100% reliable (feed from the mag), and accurate enough. Unless you are shooting long distance anything around 1 MOA will be fine. Some good hunting bullets will shoot under MOA in some rifles, but it isn't critical if your rifle won't.

 

[Blue68f100]

I generally start with recommended AOL, provided it does not put me into the lands. After I find the load that shoots the best I then start tweaking the OAL. Just try shortening the length in 0.005" increments. If you at or near max load watch for pressure signs. Sometimes shortening helps, sometimes lengthening helps. Never know till you try. Then a lot of times the length you start out at is the best. Depending on the rifle I start at 0.020" off the lands if I can reach them.

 

[murf]

varying the amount of powder is the "coarse" adjustment, varying the col is the "fine" adjustment in load development.

twenty thou off the lands is a good place to start.

luck,

murf

 

[Bayourambler]

Ok. So messing with powder charge makes way more changes than bullet depth. That' helps me ,thanks!​

 

[WVRJ]

it's been my experience that COAL. is a bit overrated,especially in hunting rifles.Target/precision rifles need every aspect of the ammunition looked at and optimized.Most factory rifles have throats that are so long that not only is a close jump to the lands impossible,the bullets have to be seated so far out that only a portion of the bearing surface is in the case neck.This will create bullet runout and neck tension inconsistencies that can do more harm to accuracy than seating to magazine or bearing surface length.The technique of changing seating depth by a few thousandths at a time was brought on by bullet manufacturers(hmmm,wonder why).It tends to make shooters do a lot of shooting to find that elusive sweet spot.The sweet spot can change with different temperatures,bullet lots,powder changes,bore fouling and scads of other minor variables.For my hunting rifles,I've found that finding the right bullet and powder and use good loading standards will net accuracy that is plenty good for most bigger game.Varmint rifles,as far as I'm concerned,are another story,and I'll do whatever it takes to get them as accurate as possible.

 

[rfwobbly]

It's been my experience that COAL is a bit overrated, especially in hunting rifles. Target/precision rifles need every aspect of the ammunition looked at and optimized. Most factory [hunting] rifles have throats that are so long that ... a close jump to the lands is impossible....

Exactly my thoughts. Hunters get really good results really fast by simply varying the loads. Due to the typically shorter distances of hunting, there's no need to jump through all the fiery hoops the competition shooters do.

• Start with very high quality components. Follow the bullet manufacturer's OAL recommendations. (E.g. If you use Sierra, then go ahead and buy the Sierra load manual, Nosler for Nosler, etc.) Then beginning at the Starting Load, break the load range into at least 6 evenly spaced increments. Build 6-8 cartridges of each load range, and shoot each group off a sand bag at a new target placed at your hunting distance. Somewhere in the middle of the load you'll see the bullet pattern converge.

• Because of the way the human eye works, your target needs to be a simple 2-3" back dot. (The smallest you can easily see.) You can print these on your computer. Having the same target for all testing makes comparison easy. Having them all on 8x11 paper makes storage easy.

• Start with the powder you have on hand, but if the group isn't good enough for you, then you might request suggestions from THR members and go through the same steps with a second powder. Change only 1 component at a time and keep repeating this process.

• The process is at some points agonizingly slow and becomes a different type of "fun" from hunting, but you'll get rock solid evidence of what your rifle is delivering. Every rifle responds to a different bullet/powder combination, so take everything you hear with a 'grain of salt'. You will become the expert on your rifle.

• Finally keep really good notes in a personal notebook. Don't leave anything to memory. You'll end up with your notes and your targets to fall back on every time it comes to reloading session time. That will reinforce your confidence.

Hope this helps.

 

[Bayourambler]

I'm glad to join this forum. I find help and direction I need rather that just firing away. The endless combos of rounds to be made can be overwhelming !!! Thanks!

 

[Reloadron]

"Chasing the lands" as they say can in some cases in some rifles improve accuracy. However, short of a target rifle shooting target bullets I doubt it is worth the time and effort. I agree with those who say choose a good hunting bullet and work with your powder choices and find an accurate hunting load. Game doesn't have a 10 ring or X ring. This without getting into the details of chasing the lands.

Ron

 

[30Cal]

As stated a couple times about, seating depth is generally a lever that has a subtle affect.

However, with some of the newer high BC bullets, VLDs and such, it can matter more.

 

[murf]

Ok. So messing with powder charge makes way more changes than bullet depth. That' helps me ,thanks!​

imo, it does. just look in any reloading manual at the velocity changes with the changes in powder weights. you can't get that kind of velocity differences from changing c.o.a.l. unless you jam the bullet into the lands, or compress the powder.

regardless, stick to the reloading manual data and start low and work up.

luck,

murf

 

[RecoilRob]

If accuracy is your goal, measure your loaded bullet runout and get it as concentric as possible. A bullet that's cocked in the neck .007 or more isn't going to engage the rifling square as one that sits true or only a thousandth or two off of perfect. For a magazine fed rifle you really don't have any options other than fitting the COAL to the mag and calling that good. You, of course, could single load the first one built to be perfectly placed with regards to the lands...but then the chance of it flying to a different spot than all the following bullets is very high. Not desireable IMHO.
I've measured a LOT of bullets built by factories and friends, and have seen people fussing around with .1 grain powder variances when their bullets were over .010" wobbly and then they wondered why they couldn't get tight groups. My favorite 308 load of 42 grains H335 under the Sierra 168 MK shoots most excellently in every rife it's ever been in...no tinkering required....but they're all at .001" runout and fit in the magazine.

 

[rfwobbly]

Most bullet manufacturer's load manuals will tell you flat out what delivered the best groups for them. That's certainly a good place to start !

 

[readyeddy]

I agree with Ron. Chasing the lands does nothing for my hunting rifle and my average skills.

Reliable feeding and lower pressures are more important to me.

 

[Blue68f100]

Most bullet manufacturer's load manuals will tell you flat out what delivered the best groups for them. That's certainly a good place to start !

Yes, but none of them have been accurate in my gun. That is just what they found in there test gun/chamber. I've quit looking at the most accurate load the recommend and just do a full workup. It's actually worked better and in most cases I end up shooting more, which is a good thing

 

[mdi]

For myself, and a couple reloaders I know, "chasing the lands" is the last item on a long list of "working up for accuracy". Bullets, powers, powder charges, primers, even brass prep. and general reloading methods (crimping, sizing, etc.) usually come first. I always start with the bullet manufacturer's recommendations for OAL and after trying all other aspects of reloading for accuracy, I try different seating depths (I was able to get 7/8" groups from my Ruger 308 using Hornady bullets with Hornady data, OAL right out of the manual)...

 

[Kaldor]

Exactly my thoughts. Hunters get really good results really fast by simply varying the loads. Due to the typically shorter distances of hunting, there's no need to jump through all the fiery hoops the competition shooters do.

• Start with very high quality components. Follow the bullet manufacturer's OAL recommendations. (E.g. If you use Sierra, then go ahead and buy the Sierra load manual, Nosler for Nosler, etc.) Then beginning at the Starting Load, break the load range into at least 6 evenly spaced increments. Build 6-8 cartridges of each load range, and shoot each group off a sand bag at a new target placed at your hunting distance. Somewhere in the middle of the load you'll see the bullet pattern converge.

• Because of the way the human eye works, your target needs to be a simple 2-3" back dot. (The smallest you can easily see.) You can print these on your computer. Having the same target for all testing makes comparison easy. Having them all on 8x11 paper makes storage easy.

• Start with the powder you have on hand, but if the group isn't good enough for you, then you might request suggestions from THR members and go through the same steps with a second powder. Change only 1 component at a time and keep repeating this process.

• The process is at some points agonizingly slow and becomes a different type of "fun" from hunting, but you'll get rock solid evidence of what your rifle is delivering. Every rifle responds to a different bullet/powder combination, so take everything you hear with a 'grain of salt'. You will become the expert on your rifle.

• Finally keep really good notes in a personal notebook. Don't leave anything to memory. You'll end up with your notes and your targets to fall back on every time it comes to reloading session time. That will reinforce your confidence.

Hope this helps.

Some quality advice here.

Dont just look at one load manual though. I have multiple manuals, powder manuals and the internet, so I take all that data and average it out to figure out my powder charges. So if Hornady says 25gr max, Hodgdon says 25.5 max, Lyman says 26.5 max, Sierra say 24.5 max, I average these to 25.375 and round up to the nearest tenth, so 25.4 would be my max. For actually selecting the loads I simply take about 1% rounded up for the charge and use that as my jump. So my ladder for this load would be 25.4 (max), 25.1, 24.8, 24.5, 24.2, 23.9. 5 rounds of each, so 25 rounds total. The average load range is probably something 21-25gr so for what its worth, you generally find that sweet spot in the upper half of the load range. And for this fictitious load buildup I did I would bet the sweet spot is at about 24.8, so roughly the 3/4 point in the load range. Case fill is also a consideration, but is an entirely different subject, and more than I want to write about here.

If loading for a mag fed rifle like an AR that caps you out at mag length, generally you wont approach the lands on these rifles, so I load them to mag length. The only exception to this is if you have a barrel that has a short chamber, meaning the lands are very close and or you are using bullets with a very fat ogive. If you really want to chase accuracy in a rifle, you need a comparator set from Hornady so you can set the bullet about 10 thou off the lands to start as most bullets shoot pretty well from there. A piece of advice here though, if you are in a situation where the bullet will touch the lands in a semi auto rifle, never let the bullet jam into the lands as the bolt closes, you generally always want a jump of about 20 thou in a semi at minimum. In a bolt gun you can stick the bullet into the lands if it likes it as you can close the bolt with care.

In all cases, watch for pressure signs. Flat primers, primer flow, ejector marks, case head marks from bolt head, sticky bolt lift, etc, ad nauseum....

 

[hdwhit]

Bayourambler wrote:
I'm brand new to reloading...

Welcome to THR and welcome to a fascinating and ejoyable hobby.

I think the first question that should be asked is, "Why are you relaoding?"

If you're doing it because you want more control over your ammunition choices and you're just using the rounds for casual target shooting and hunting at distances under about, say, 300 yards, the potential accuracy improvement from "finding the lands" is in my opinion not going to be worth the effort.

The people who need to worry about "finding the lands" are long-distance competition shooters trying to shoot five rounds and end up with one hole.

 

[Sunray]

Every rifle, including 2 identical, consecutively serial, numbered rifles, will have a slightly different chamber dimensions. As a result, every rifle will prefer a different distance off the lands.
However, the "finding the lands" stuff is a load tweaking thing done after you have a group. If you feel like it. Isn't totally necessary. It's a time consuming, entirely trial and error thing. And it will not make a lick of difference in a hunting rifle. The max OAL with bullet given in your manual will work just fine.
A hunting load is about consistency. If the thing is 2 or 3 inches at 100 yards every time, that's ok. Mind you, you can usually get that a bit smaller by changing the bullet weight. The brand of bullet doesn't make much difference despite what the assorted marketing departments say.
You do not need bullet specific data either. Loading is done according to the bullet weight. Not who made it or its shape or construction.
"...Most bullet manufacturer's load manuals will tell you..." Yep. Using the exact components, firearm(If it's a firearm. Usually isn't.), barrel length and conditions on the day of the tests. And manual data are averages.
Read the reference chapters of your manual. Lyman's being the most versatile. Pretty decent read and decidedly informative. Even though they use a lot of math.(and it is math, not arithmetic.).

 

[Bayourambler]

Welcome to THR and welcome to a fascinating and ejoyable hobby.

I think the first question that should be asked is, "Why are you relaoding?"

If you're doing it because you want more control over your ammunition choices and you're just using the rounds for casual target shooting and hunting at distances under about, say, 300 yards,

 

[Bayourambler]

Well it all started as finding a more accurate hunting load. I hunt whitetail in open ag fields and have some challenging distance shots. My answer to why I've started reloading seems to change daily!! I now want to challenge myself shooting targets. I want the best load I possibly can get for this rifle. Right now I'm learning because I have a brand new 300 wing mag in the box awaiting a good scope. I want to learn. I've always wanted to shoot long distance. When I break the new rifle in I want to have some experience loading bullets!!! Thanks everyone !

 

[41 Mag]

I have loaded hunting and target ammo since I was 8, now 53 and still learning

My rifles are used for hunting and I strive for accuracy first and then deal with learning the load. I have a 16.5" Ruger Compact That shoots Rem factory CL' s around 1"or slightly more at 100yds. It however only gets about 2300'ish fps. That said though I learned how it shot and have dumped plenty of hogs out in the 275-450yd ranges with it.

As mentioned above, study you info and make good choices up front. I like powders on the slower side, and try to choose one that works for more than one load or caliber, H4350 is one I use a LOT of as is H4895. They are decent for a ton of loads, great for a few, but not necessarily the best for anything.

I use mainly Win primers but have everything else as well. Sometimes this can be a deciding factor, but usually if a load shoots good in a rifle, this isn't going to be a big game changer. Might open or close a group up some, but the balance of the load and the bullet will usually be a greater influence.

Best thing I can say is to only change one thing at a time and work through it to determine if it actually is the issue. Take your time and be patient.