Caliber Question - Tales From The Morgue Part 1

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camslam

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Hey Gang,

First off, this post is very, very, very long, so it is broken up into a few sections. The reason I am posting this is I found it interesting, thought provoking, and thoroughly entertaining.

In a thread posted not too long ago about caliber size here on THR, there was a reference made to this information, but I have never seen it on THR.

I found this a little over a year ago in the Smith and Wesson forums in the conceal carry section. It was a long thread that took on a life of its own because a coroner in the Atlanta Georgia area jumped in and started to provide experience from what he had seen regarding gun shots, calibers, and wounds.

I have put most of his replies and posts in the quoted section below and if you decide to read through it you will find that he gives his opinions, his experiences, and it reads in chronological order as he answers and addresses different questions. You may want to copy and paste it into another document and read it as you have time.

In the end, because of the controversy and difference of opinions, he finished his remarks and I never found anything more on it. I'm sure there will be plenty of opinions about his comments, but overall, I thought he did a GREAT job of sharing some interesting information. I hope you enjoy.

Edited to add: I figured out I should just attach the file, so it is there in a subsequent post if you want to read it. Mods can delete the other 2 posts if they would like. Sorry for the sloppy formatting.


I see an average of 8.2 autopsies per day/365 days per year, and I can tell you that when the chips are down, there's nothing that beats a 12-gauge. As for handguns, the name of the game is not only shot placement but how a properly-placed bullet acts once it gets there. I've seen folks killed by a bb to the eye and others survive after being hit by several well-placed rounds with a 9mm. As for me, I'll take a slow-moving .45 to a gun fight any day. I absolutely despise a 9mm for defensive situations (yes, they will eventually kill but often not quickly enough to prevent the BG from doing you in first)and a .380 as well. These are probably the two calibers I see most often on the autopsy table. But then, I've seen most everything. I've seen a guy killed by a .416 Rigby, as well as a suicide to the head with a .44 Mag that didn't penetrate the skull on the other side. The long and short of it is that you just don't know how ANY bullet will react to tissue and bone until you open them up and take a look. I've seen hardball fragment and hollowpoints act just like hardball. That said, shoot what you're comfortable with and place your shots well whatever caliber you use.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------The .357 is gloriously effective. It's just that semi-autos are much more common than they used to be, so we see far more 9mm and .380 rounds on the autopsy table than we do the .38 and .357. Particularly among the gangbangers, the 9mm and .380 are the weapons of choice. The .357 is a wonderfully effective round for self-defense from what I've seen, but it's rare that we get them in anymore. Again, this is from experience that I've made my calls on what works and what doesn't. I have no use for mouse guns like the .32, although it's a lot better to have a mouse gun than nothing at all. Personally, I'll never carry anything smaller than a .40 and prefer the .45. Day in and day out, results from the autopsy table show me that the .45 is the gun to have in a gun fight, provided you can shoot it well. If not, it's better to have something you can shoot well, even if it's a mouse gun, than something you can't.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You're correct in what you're thinking. Yes, the 9mm and .380 are the rounds I most often see on the autopsy table, but they're also the rounds that usually require multiple hits to make the kill. The standing joke in the morgue is to guess the caliber by looking at the x-rays. If multiple rounds show up on the x-rays more often than not it's a 9mm or .380 (or .32 or .25 or some mouse gun caliber). If only one round shows up, it could be an inordinately good hit with a .380 or 9mm, but more likely it's a .40 or .45. Yes, the .380 and 9mm will do the job, but usually multiple hits are required as opposed to single hits with a .40 or .45.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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How does this gentleman know that "it took multiple hits" to make these "kills?"

Besides, this "gentleman's" articles have been flagged as shenanigans on countless other message boards, including at least one thread here. The number 8.2 autopsies a day, and the ability to determine the difference between .380 Auto and 9mm Parabellum rounds without a casing have been enough reasonable doubt to dispel this gentleman's "true morgue tales."

He's looking at CORPSES. And many criminal induced deaths are as much a case of temperment as "stopping a fight." In crimes of violence and passion, there are cases of 60 to 90 stab wounds inflicted on some victims. What's to say an angry criminal, or an angry group of criminals won't empty a full magazine into a corpse just in frustration or anger.
 
Doug: I make no guarantees as to the validity of the information he presents, nor have I seen him discredited in other forums or on THR.

I thought it was interesting to read and thought others might enjoy it. Obviously this will do nothing to settle caliber wars, nor is it exactly substantiated forensic evidence, but it is a fun read.

In all sincerity, I would be interested in learning more about this "gentlemen" if you have any information.

Thanks.
 
Doug, that's a good point about the difficulty of differentiating between a .380 and 9mm round without the casings. I've seen a number of forensic files (my wife Tivos them religiously) and have noticed a few times when they say they think the round is in the 9mm range, meaning it could be a .357, .38, .380, 9mm, Makarov--they just don't know.
 
when they say they think the round is in the 9mm range, meaning it could be a .357, .38, .380, 9mm, Makarov--they just don't know.
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assuming the bullet held togeter for the most part, or it was only in a few pieces, couldnt it just be weighed, and at least use that to eliminate, say, 2 of 4 possibilities at least? for the most part, using those 4 rounds as an example, there is only a little overlap, for the most part, at least with factory ammo, which is going to account for 99.99% of ammo in shootings, I'd have to think.

Or is there some reason that wont work I'm not seeing? (aside from the occasional bullet that really came apart, and possibly some cant reasonabley be recovered, which would obviously skew the weight...)

just a thought, IO have no experiance in medicine, or shooting people, so....:D
 
How does he know that 'it took multiple hits to make the kill?'. Pretty simple for most coroners--they just ask the LEO's that responded to the scene!! Don't forget that they pickup these bodies at the ER, where the cops are and where the info was also passed on too the E.R. staff.

It's just amazing to me how hard headed folks want to be in hanging on too smaller calibers such as 9mm and 380's. I have 25 years in watching gunshot wounds come into E.R.'s, and just like the coroner, my observations mean nothing, so I won't bother even posting them.
 
I see an average of 8.2 autopsies per day/365 days per year,
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Am I too skeptical?

The very first sentence throws a red flag. If he said "8.2 autopsies per day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks a year", I might be less skeptical. Does he really work 365 days a year?

Mike
 
It's just amazing to me how hard headed folks want to be in hanging on too smaller calibers such as 9mm and 380's. I have 25 years in watching gunshot wounds come into E.R.'s, and just like the coroner, my observations mean nothing, so I won't bother even posting them.
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They don't mean anything to the vocal minority. I certainly welcome all input. I have the wife carrying a .380/9mm when she used to carry nothing. Observations from medical personal might help me convert her to something larger.
 
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