Can anyone tell me about a Franz Civil War era Rifle?

[reverendfranz]

I just spotted this on Gunbroker, and have never heard of it before.

An Austrian Franz civil war rifle. Mainly used by the confederates during the civil war.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=132689962

Perhaps you noticed my name, and am a big fan of Civil War history, so i am very interested in learning a bit more about this rifle, if anyone knows anything about it, or where i might look for more information, id appreciate it.

 

[arcticap]

There's some details lacking about the rifle in question and whether it is a smoothbore or not.
The Europeans dumped 100's of different models into the Civil War, and while the Austrian 1854 Lorenz rifled musket was among the most popular to be imported among both sides, the Austrian army itself was still largely armed with several of their older and fast becoming obsolete 1842 smoothbore models as late as 1859.

But those older Austrian Model 1842's weren't name Franz rifles, and the rifled Muskets being made in 1861 were Lorenz and not Franz.

Many units were still armed with the old smoothbore percussion musket, the ConsoleAugustin. Muskets had a brown stock and white strap. Fusiliers had a bayonet carried in a black scabbard with gold fittings. Grenadiers had a short curved sabre too.

The armament of the Grenzer regiments consisted of the rifled Kammerbüchse MI842 (Delvigne system) with black strap and bayonet.

The Jäger's armament consisted of the good rifled Jägerstutzen M1854 with black strap. As it was a short weapon it had an unusual long, straight bayonet, sabre shaped.


http://visimperica.com/Armies/Austria1859.htm

What I'd like to know is why the lock says Springfield on it and where are the typical Austrian crest markings and such?

I don't see what makes it a Franz rifle at all or if any rifle by the name of Franz even exists.

 

[Phantom Captain]

I think the seller is confused as well.

It has many characteristics of the Lorenz rifle though and I would say that's what is although it seems it's had a few modifications. The Lorenz characteristics that jump out at me are notably the odd twisted front site, the cheek piece on the stock, the nipple bolster and the nose cap. The placement of the bands (it appears the middle band is missing though but one can see where it should be) is also as a Lorenz. One more thing I notice too is where the back site has been knocked off which too looks like a Lorenz block site should be there.

The Springfield lock is odd as is the hammer, with engraving no less. It appears someone has modified it to take an also modified Springfield lock for whatever reason. Maybe the original was broken or lost? The Lorenz lock has a flat plane in front of the bolster that would fit in the space between the bolster and where the wood of the stock is now. The hammer is another story altogether, not a Lorenz, Springfield or even Enfield hammer. It looks to me more like an american civillian type hammer taken off who knows what kind of rifle. Like what you would see on a Kentucky or Pennsylvania percussion rifle. The engraving to me leans that way as well.

Here are some nice pictures of an original Lorenz, compare the items I mentioned for yourself.

http://www.sharpsburg-arsenal.com/Rifles___Muskets/F437_Lorenz_Musket_1/f437_lorenz_musket_1.html

I would have to say bastardized Lorenz. No such thing as a Franz that I've ever heard of. There are quite a few sporterized, converted, bastardized etc. Civil War rifles out there that have been tinkered with after the war for whatever reason. Either to make them shotguns by boring them out and shortening the stock, make a weapon work that was broken or to pull a fast one on the unsuspecting public by claiming it's something it isn't.

 

[pohill]

I researched a Belgian rifle that I own from the same era and apparently these guns were modified, pieced together, etc:

"It is a military or rather, it WAS a military piece before a clever gunsmith merged it with a Dutch M1841 breech. It started as a M1853 rifled musket, was then converted by the Belgian Army into an 1853/67 ( an Albini breechloader). All the markings are Belgian military markings. The 59 on the lock indicates the original gun was made in 1859. My first reaction was to identify it as a M1853; but a close picture of the breech showed my first guess to be incorrect. The rifling has also been removed. M1853/67 guns are fairly common, but M1853s are rarities...because the conversion work was done so thoroughly, there are only a handful left.
I hope this makes it clearer...
André"

 

[reverendfranz]

Drat.

Thats kinda what I thought, but i was hopeful there was some sort of Franz rifle connection i had never heard of. I dont have a Gunbroker account, as i dont have an approved email to use to register, only a gmail account, but i really would like to know where the seller came up with the name Franz, if it is marked somewhere on the barrel, or if someone just came along and told the seller it was a Lorenz, and the seller misheard. If there are markings, i would love to see them, and would be no less excited if there was an austrian barrel maker or the like named Franz. I wasnt considering buying this one, but if there were some rifles out there marked with my name, it would be quite fun to keep my eyes open for an example. The bastardized hodgepodge of parts wouldnt bother me too much, as the man who gave me the name was a bit of bastard himself, and im a bit of a hodgepodge myself, having been a few generations in the american melting pot.

If anyone does have a gunbroker account and can ask for clarification or a picture from the seller, i would be greatful, but i do thank you for confirming my suspicion that i hadnt somehow missed something like that in my own reading.