can somebody explain 44-40?

[roscoe]

Why is the 44-40 such an anemic load? If the 30-30 is (was) 30 grains of black powder pushing a 170 grain bullet, and the 44-40 is (was) 40 grains of black powder pushing a ~240 grain bullet, I would think that the 44-40 would be a reasonably powerful cartridge. Although it would have its limitations over longer distances.

And can modern .44 mag leverguns shoot the 44-40?

 

[Art Eatman]

The cartridge had a relatively light powder charge such that it was safe to shoot in the Type 1 Colt single action.

Remember that as the bore size increases, the relative chamber pressure decreases. (I think, but am not sure, that it's a function of the square of the diameter. But, force = pressure times area and all that physics stuff...)

FWIW, Art

 

[buttrap]

Probably helps that the 30-30 was a smokless load from the start too.

 

[Infidel]

The .30-30 was NOT a blackpowder cartridge. It was the first major commercial smokeless powder cartridge, and used about 30 grains of the then-new nitro powder, so some people stuck the designation .30-30 on it, based on the historical caliber-powder charge nomenclature for black powder cartridges. It was also known as the .30 WCF (Winchester Central Fire).
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/3030history.htm

The .44-40 was introduced in 1873 with the Winchester Rifle Model of 1873. It was NOT designed for revolvers, although Colt did later chamber their revolvers for it. The .44-40, also called the .44 Winchester Central Fire, was the replacement for the .44 Henry rimfire that was used in the Henry and the Winchester 1866.

You cannot shoot any other round in a .44-40 chamber, nor can you shoot .44-40 in any other chamber. It is a bottleneck round, although the bottleneck is shallow.

 

[redneck2]

I think...

that some of it has to do with the burning and pressure characteristics of black versus smokeless. In Handloader magazine they go back and load some of the original blackpower rounds with black vs smokeless to compare performance. IIRC the black is typically as good or better than most smokeless velocity-wise.

Then remember, what did they have to compare against??? A .44-40 was hot stuff compared to loading one cylinder at a time. While a lot of modern-day coyboys think it takes a .500 Super-Thumper to kill any modern animal bigger than a mouse, Linebaugh used hardcast bullets in a 45 Colt to take cape buffalo at relatively modest velocity.

I guess the real answer is Art's. A little increase in diameter adds a lot to the overall area. The pressure of the gases is divided over or distributed over that area. For example, how much bigger is a 12" pizza than a 9"?? Twice the amount even though it's only 3" bigger.

As above, firearm construction and propellants have come a long way.

 

[cookiemonster]

on a diffrent note, winchester and one or two other manufacturers made a "high performance" load for rifles, and a low power load for pistols.

According to several individuals, the 44-40 accounted for more game, big and small, and more people, good and bad, than any other cartridge in the US. It was poplular with the outdoor types due to the simple fact you only needed ONE type of ammo for both firearms...that was before the hot loads I mention up there...of course, you had people putting the hot loads in the pistols, and then getting rapid disassembly. I have been told that with good brass, you can load a 44-40 to very good levels...makes it a 100 yard deer and black bear cartridge again.

Darrell

 

[Jim Watson]

The .44-40, .30-30, etc. nomenclature came in when Marlin didn't want to mark their rifles with WCF standing for WINCHESTER Center Fire.

 

[Ed]

The 44-40 is a fine round. It is a heavier bigger bullet so you need to know your limitations and the trajectory will be more rainbowish than a 30-30 but it is fine for deer and other like game in most of the areas where the shots are under 100 yards. Lots of people killed lots of deer with them before the 300 super extra fast 1000 meter magnums were invented.

 

[Malamute]

BTW, the 44-40 used a 200 to 217 gr bullet. Never heard of a factory load with a 240 gr.

To put it into a differnt perspective, in a rifle it's almost as powerful as a 44 magnum fired from a 4" barrel pistol.

Many people load 44-40's pretty hot for use in Winchester 92 rifles. Can push 2000 fps in a 92 w/ 200 gr bullets. Seems to give good performance on game either way tho. Several guys on leverguns forum use 44-40's for deer with cast bullets at regular velocity, they say the deer rarely goes more than a few steps before hitting the dirt.

 

[slzy]

lchuck connors as lucas mccains in the rifleman,had a 44-40

 

[Father Knows Best]

44-40 is not an "anemic" round -- at least, it doesn't have to be. I load and shoot thousands of 44-40 rounds a year. Most are pretty mild, as I use them for cowboy action shooting. It also makes a fine hunting round. In appropriate (Ruger) single action revolvers and in some rifles such as the Winchester 92 and clones, you can load the 44-40 to near 44 mag levels. It has the case capacity for it. The limiting factor is the strength of the gun you're shooting it out of.

On that last point, keep in mind what someone else already said above -- the 44-40 was invented by Winchester as the .44 Winchester Central Fire (.44WCF). It was introduced with the model 1873 rifle, and replaced the .44 Henry rimfire round that was used in the 1860 "Henry" repeating rifle and the model 1866 (the so-called "Yellowboy" rifle). Compared to the 44 Henry, the .44WCF was pretty potent.

While the Winchester model 1873 was a "new" rifle, it still used the same toggle link action that was first successful in the 1860 Henry. It is NOT a strong action, and cannot handle a lot of pressure. The 44WCF was designed for that action. If it was loaded to 44 mag pressure levels and used in and 1873 Winchester, it would blow the bolt out the back of the receiver and blind or kill the shooter.

Winchester came out with a much stronger action in 1886. It was a John M. Browning design. In 1892, a scaled down version was introduced for small cartridges like the 44-40. The 1892 action has dual locking lugs and can take very high pressures, including heavy 44 mag loads.

The "thutty-thutty" came along even later, as I recall, first being offered as the .30WCF in the new Winchester model 1894. As others have pointed out, it was the first successful nitro (smokeless) cartridge. While there are reports that some munitions companies did load the .30-.30 with black powder, it was never intended to be so loaded, and it's an awful black powder cartridge. It lacks sufficient case capacity, and the very small bore gets fouled very quickly. Successful black powder cartridges either pack tiny powder loads (like the .32-20) or big bores (.44-40, .45-70, etc.).

 

[roscoe]

Wow - thanks for the info everyone. I got to wondering this after watching my DVD of Winchester 73. Dutch Henry Brown comments on the anemic power of the Henry relative to the 44-40 after shooting the gambler/trader in the back with this Henry, so there ya go.

 

[mainmech48]

What's anemic about a 200 gr. bullet at almost 1100 f/s from a 7 1/2" revolver? That's what Mike Venturino got from full-charge BP .44/40 loads in a recent magazine article. That treads real closely on 10mm Auto territory if the same weight projectile is used.

Smokeless loads were offered, as has been mentioned, in two different flavors with the more potent stuff reserved for rifles and carbines exclusively. IMO, this was in deference to the many, many old BP revolvers out there that weren't as strong as the SAA and those Colts not proofed for 'nitro' pressures.

In their original BP loadings the .44/40, .38/40 (and .45 Colt) were the Magnums of their day. Anemic, they were not - especially from a '73.

 

[MrAcheson]

As others have pointed out the difference is that .44/40 is a black powder round and .30-30 is 30 grains of smokeless powder. It should also be noted that "back in the day" the .44/40 used balloon head cases that gave it a few grains more capacity and oomph. Modern .44/40 cases tend to actually be .44/35 or .44/38 cases.