Case Cleaning Method Comparison Article

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Did the difference show up on the target?

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...

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I'll stick with my corn cob then. Not trying to be a wise acre, but my brass is already shinier than new and I've spent a total of $55 over the last 4 years on brass cleaning products and that includes the tumbler.
 
I also like the fact that you neatly omitted any explanation of hybrid styles -like mine- other than to say they were too much work. You also failed to mention what solution you used. I'm also sad that you tested THE MOST EXPENSIVE ultrasonic on the market today in that tank capacity.

Do you get paid for every click on the sinclair link to your ultimate winner system , dBbarn ?

Not inclusive,

Not conclusive ( except, mebbe, to you )

Definitely not "definitive" in any sense of the definition of that word :

1: serving to provide a final solution or to end a situation <a definitive victory>
2
: authoritative and apparently exhaustive <a definitive edition>
3
a : serving to define or specify precisely <definitive laws>
b : serving as a perfect example : quintessential <a definitive bourgeois>
4
: fully differentiated or developed <a definitive organ>

Seems like a marketing pitch article to get ya to click on the merchant link- Sorry.

PS, the "lustre" on your 45 cases is not "amazing" ...unless you compare it to your other results.

If I wanted jewelry presentation for my brass, that wouldn't be it.
 
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Did you put any polishing solution in the corn or walnut. Brand name stuff or NuFinish????

Here is my test posted on another forum where the debate was walnut vs corn vs combo. Brass in middle was "control" group. Sharpie line ID's my brass. Two hours, all new media.

Conclusion was , makes no difference. Nu finish added to all. In sunlight they all are blinding.

DSC02598Medium.gif
 
Nice, rule.

I think the main use for walnut is the first pass on really nasty cases - for those that exclusively vibe tumble.
 
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the truth shows :


http://www.shootandreload.com/affiliate-relationship-disclaimer/

"Affiliate Relationship Disclaimer

This website may at times accept forms of cash advertising, sponsorship, paid insertions or other forms of affiliate compensation.

The compensation received may or may not influence the advertising content, topics or posts made on this site. That content, advertising space or post may not always be identified as paid or sponsored content. Not all content is written or presented for the sole purpose of receiving affiliate income. Clicking on links or purchasing products contained on this website may generate income for this website owner(s).

The owner(s) of this website is compensated through various affiliate programs and some content presents opinions on products, services, websites and various other topics. Even though the owner(s) of this website may receive affiliate compensation for reviews or advertisements, we always give our honest opinions, findings, beliefs, or experiences on those topics or products. The views and opinions expressed on this website are purely the website’s’ own. Any product claim, statistic, quote or other representation about a product or service should be verified with the manufacturer, provider or party in question.

This website does contain some content which may or may not present a conflict of interest. This content may not always be immediately identified due to the nature of posting methods. When possible every attempt will be made to identify advertising from general non-advertising content."


IN CONCLUSION I don't believe that you can actually execute an unbiased experiment, with that note included. You might be getting an extra buck for each click on that link, as opposed to the other mentioned.... we don't know ( and I'm not asking you to tell us ) But in the future, you might wanna put that disclaimer as a sig line or something.

I also think this is really close to this :

Contribution of your experience in threads where you have a commercial interest, provided that commercial interest is disclosed. If you make the best widget and want to say so in a thread about widgets then go ahead, but make sure you include the fact that you are something other than an unbiased but happy customer. There is nothing wrong with being proud of one's products and services, but there is quite a bit wrong with promoting your services by pretending to be a happy customer.

Which is being debated and discussed as we speak !

I'd love for whoever actually makes that call to examine this, and judge accordingly.
 
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First of all, I GET NO BUCKS FOR CLICKS. There are five links in that article:
-Drillspot
-iSOnic
-Hornady
-Stainless Steel Tumbling Media
-Sinclair

Of those five, the only the Sinclair link is connected to an affiliate program. In other words if you click on that link AND BUY THE PRODUCT I get a small commission. AND I MAKE THAT VERY CLEAR IN THE STATEMENT JUST ABOVE THE LINK.

Regarding 'hybrid styles' of cleaning: I made the conscious decision not to include them. To have included every possible combination would have made for a very lengthy article.

Did I put any polishing solution in the cord cob or walnut: No I did not. I would have said so if I had. And doing so would have opened up a whole new range of combinations. (I would have had to at least have run tests with and without polishing solution. Then to do it justice would have had to test with several different polishing solutions.) If one of you would like to undertake the task of a comparison test of several different polishing solutions added to corn cob (and then perhaps an identical test using walnut) I will be most happy to publish it.

All equipment and materials used for this article came out of my own pocket. I bought and paid for everything. My Money. 100 Percent of it. I am pushing no particular product or company. Every article on my site is about products I have used personally. I relate my experiences, GOOD and BAD. A SMALL PERCENTAGE of the links go to websites that have an affiliate program I belong to. When I recommend a product it is without regard to any affiliate status I may or may not have with the company. In fact, most products I've had good experience with and recommend DO NOT offer an affiliate program.

To the poster who complained that I chose the most expensive ultrasonic unit in it's capacity: If I had chosen (and paid for) a less expensive unit then someone surely would have complained that the test was biased by the choice of the lower cost product.

Regarding the 'Affiliate Relationship Disclaimer': Almost every website on the internet has advertising and affiliate relationships and therefore should (according to the FTC) publish a disclaimer similar to mine. Why is the fact that I publish the disclaimer and others do not (but should) a black mark against ME? I have nothing if I don't have my integrity which is exactly WHY that disclaimer is there.

The article contains my open and honest experiences and opinions, with the hope someone somewhere will someday find them useful. For those who consider it insufficiently 'definitive' I invite you to submit your own additional material and I will add it to the website with full attribution.
 
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Regarding the 'Affiliate Relationship Disclaimer': Almost every website on the internet has advertising and affiliate relationships and therefore should (according to the FTC) publish a disclaimer similar to mine. Why is the fact that I publish the disclaimer and others do not (but should) a black mark against ME? I have nothing if I don't have my integrity which is exactly WHY that disclaimer is there.

Not you specifically. Any advertiser who gets paid for their content should be noted for their potential bias.

Of those five, the only the Sinclair link is connected to an affiliate program. In other words if you click on that link AND BUY THE PRODUCT I get a small commission. AND I MAKE THAT VERY CLEAR IN THE STATEMENT JUST ABOVE THE LINK.

Yes, that is specifically what adds an air of impartiality to your review of the process.
Thank you for pointing it out, in case anyone missed it.
I wasn't insinuating that you were hiding it. I was insinuating that you missed your own potential bias by doing so.

When I recommend a product it is without regard to any affiliate status

Potentially biased conjecture at the very best. Impossible to prove to be completely true at the very least.

The article contains my open and honest experiences and opinions

We would hope. However, given the fact that you earn money when someone buys the product you find best from a link provided in your article, the truth of that statement can't be impartially ascertained.

Regarding 'hybrid styles' of cleaning: I made the conscious decision not to include them.

And in doing so, have robbed not only yourself, but your viewership, of a process that meets the quality of cleanliness provided by ultrasonic, with the polish provided by tumbling. At approximately HALF the equipment investment of the product you claim to be "best", I might add.

The fact that your omission of that hybrid process leads you to a conclusion that gets you paid if someone agrees with you, further complicates your claim of impartiality and " Definitive-ness".

Regarding 'hybrid styles' of cleaning: I made the conscious decision not to include them.
Yes, you consciously excluded ALL of them, even though even ONE of them ( frequently mentioned here) approximates the standard of "hybrid styles" You could not even include ONE.... when the length of that test would have exceeded your longest test by only approximately 30 minutes...less so in some folks' formulas.



So yes, I stand by my first, and above, claims.

No, I wont freely generate research data for use in your paid advertisement- I don't believe anyone else should either.

I have already done research I find compelling. The results of that process, and the process itself, are freely given here- without commercial attachment.

You CAN however, find most of the hybrid theories here on THR....and should you feel so inclined, perform those experiments, obtain your own impartial data, and utilize that data to further your commercial interests.

PS

I also certainly do hope that the timing of this thread on a popular topic ( tumbling- stainless in particular), especially in this particular day and age where new reloaders are popping up faster than ever- and seeking advice here as a result......that links those users in question directly to the product you get paid for if they follow that link completely to a sale............ was not intentional.

Otherwise, thats just "Schilly-Willy" all the way to your bank.
 
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Me:
The article contains my open and honest experiences and opinions

blarby:
We would hope. However, given the fact that you earn money when someone buys the product you find best from a link provided in your article, the truth of that statement can't be impartially ascertained.

Actually, the article was originally written without the link to Sinclair (and therefore no monetized links at all). It was only at the last minute that I was made aware that Sinclair had begun carrying Thumler's Tumber and the SS media. But since you see evil intent in every syllable I"ll just have to let it go.

And in doing so, have robbed not only yourself, but your viewership, of a process that meets the quality of cleanliness provided by ultrasonic, with the polish provided by tumbling. At approximately HALF the equipment investment of the product you claim to be "best", I might add.

The fact that your omission of that hybrid process leads you to a conclusion that gets you paid if someone agrees with you, further complicates your claim of impartiality and " Definitive-ness".

Actually, if you go back and read the article more carefully you would see my recommendation:

"If my brass were what I consider a ‘normal’ level of dirty and tarnished I would use a vibrating tumbler and corn cob media."

And I HAVE used NuFinish with both corn cob and walnut and it did not get the 223 cases clean. I COULD have added a set of tests with NuFinish but then in fairness I would have to also evaluate several other products as well (or someone like yourself would complain that the test was invalid because I did not include their favorite polish). Let's say I add four different polishes. That's eight more test runs (corn cob and walnut). I'll probably do such a test focusing on a comparison of just the polishes but it will be a separate article.

And finally, I'm currently writing an article on my experience with cast bullet lube products and methods. If you are unhappy with my case cleaning article then I suggest you not spend time reading this one either. :)
 
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Actually, if you go back and read the article more carefully you would see my recommendation:

"If my brass were what I consider a ‘normal’ level of dirty and tarnished I would use a vibrating tumbler and corn cob media."

Actually, if you got back and read my objection clearly, it relates to your closing your article with the stainless tumbler being the best for your needs and then linking that statement to something where ya get paid... Those needs.....which happen to coincide with just about what everyone else who reloads needs' are. I've not come across a lot of " normally clean" , yet dirty, fired brass.

here :

Sadly, my 223 brass is not the ‘normal’ level of dirty and tarnished. only the Thumler’s Tumbler and stainless steel media gets it clean and shiny.

Thats pretty much whats there. I read the article many, many times. You are a decent writer, the phraseology and flow of the article to its proscribed destination is not lost on me.



And finally, I'm currently writing an article on my experience with cast bullet lube products and methods. If you are unhappy with my case cleaning article then I suggest you not spend time reading this one either.

I am unhappy with your article.

I'm also following very closely the debate about commercial use of THR, and how it effects our members. After doing A BOAT LOAD of surfing the threads over the last week, I too have some concerns. They relate less ( my personal feelings and evaluations- for me only- probably not THR's main concern...but maybe...) on how to commercially equalize the member-forum relationship, and more about things like this.

If you post it here, and its conspicuously biased, and it links to your blogsterprise.....

You can bet your sweet patootey I'll cya there.

I'm not done with this....but I gotta go get the missus........not close to done..............
 
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Don't let the side-issue of the advertising detract from the actual results, which IMHO match the many other comparisons of this nature that have been made.

Couple of examples of stainless cleaning some well oxidized brass:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1571014&postcount=59
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1600079&postcount=1


It's up to each individual as to if it's important for their brass to be surgically-clean.

Beyond that, there are lots and lots of well-documented testimonials in the last month or two demonstrating how well wet tumbling in stainless media cleans even the ugliest of brass.
 
If you want clean cases, tumbler works fine.

If you want spotless, wet stainless works the best.
 
Wow! It seems to me the OP put some effort into this and is trying to share his results so as to help some peopls make up their minds which way to go with case cleaning. I only see helpful information. I also have experimented with these different ways to clean and polish, except I did not purchase ultra-sonic equipment because I think it costs too much. I buy rifle brass at estate and farm auctions. Many, many times this this stuff is very dirty and green on the inside. Corn cob polishes, walnut cleans. Neither cleans inside. SS media does this. It even cleans inside .204 cases. It is somewhat more work because of the drying time. Not a big deal to me. Don't like it? Don't use it. So IMHO I think this was a good, informative post. Thank you dbarnhart.
 
If you want spotless, wet stainless works the best.

"best" is again, up to interpretation.

When you omit one of the options, it becomes dubious at "best"

4 hours for those results is not what I would call "best".

$230 machine definitely is not "best"

I do agree that you, as an informed , intelligent , thoughtful, loader can take what you want from the article.

Not everyone is so well informed, nor thoughtful and insightful, as you.

Thats where the rub comes in. The fact that its done here, is where it rubs me.

The fact that he omitted MY process, is also a potential bias :D :scrutiny: but doesn't alter the fact that at its core....this is insidiously shilling.
 
I use the vinegar, salt, water solution for really grungy range brass. Cheap effective and works. The through it in a media vibrator if you want real shiny.

As to the liquid additives, there is little to no difference between them. Only price for the big brand names. Grafs works as well as Dillon or Flitz or FA. It isn't high tech chemistry,;)

http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm#Solutions
 
The fact that he omitted MY process, is also a potential bias but doesn't alter the fact that at its core....this is insidiously shilling.

Sigh. The fact is, I started this article about six weeks ago after pulling that first batch of brass out of the wet tumbler and went 'WOW'. I thought, "Hey, wouldn't it be a great idea to do a side-by-side comparison of the common case-cleaning methods and publish the results".

Every weekend for the last six weeks after coming home from the range I spent some time cleaning brass, taking pictures, and writing. It was only yesterday when the new catalog arrived did I realize that I had an affiliate link with someone who sells the tumbler and media. So I added it to the bottom with a clear disclaimer and then hit the 'Publish' button.

So while you claim that you can use the power of the internet to peer into my heart and discern evil intent, I know better.

So I'll make a deal with you: When the mods here at THR (and you are clearly not a mod) come and tell me that what I'm doing is inappropriate then I'll stop. Until then you'll give it a rest.

Deal?
 
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But wait, there's more.

You stated that you did not add any additive to the corn and walnut media as then you would have to try all different kinds.

In your stainless steel tumbling you added a whole container of Lemi shine and Dawn?? This solution can be used without the stainless media tumbler. I have used the Lemi Shine and just soaked the brass. It works about the same as the vinegar and salt water.

So to me your test comparison is not statistical valid. You would have to run the stainless media with no liquid solution.

Sure the Stainless media and solution works well, not saying it doesn't but the test is not fair.

"The guys at Stainless Steel Tumbling Media have a package that contains everything you need: the Thumler’s Model B tumbler, the stainless steel media, and a bottle of Lemi-shine. Add water and two tablespoons of Dawn and you are set to go. The tumbler is rating for 15 pounds and after adding the water and stainless steel media that leaves two pounds for brass. For me a typical shooting session is 100 rounds each of rifle and pistol. I polish the two kinds of brass separately and so two pounds is plenty of capacity."
 
So I'll make a deal with you: When the mods here at THR (and you are clearly not a mod) come and tell me that what I'm doing is inappropriate then I'll stop. Until then you'll give it a rest.

Deal?

Nope.


So while you claim that you can use the power of the internet to peer into my heart and discern evil intent, I know better.

I'm not psychic, but I AM a blackbelt at money-fu. Particularly selling and advertising.

When the mods here at THR (and you are clearly not a mod

Correct, I am not a moderator of this forum. I can however read and understand the rules and acceptable behavior as published, and demand that everyone else do the same. That is MY right.

"Hey, wouldn't it be a great idea to do a side-by-side comparison of the common case-cleaning methods and publish the results".

Which is a great idea...but you left a huge hole in your test data, and dismissed it as factually irrelevant, on the premise that it was too hard- or potentially too time consuming. I could not disagree more, both in its difficulty, and in its duration


It was only yesterday when the new catalog arrived did I realize that I had an affiliate link with someone who sells the tumbler and media.

Again, convenient, but the truth of that statement is subject to peer review :D

come and tell me that what I'm doing is inappropriate

Mods are stretched as it is. I'm not saying they will or wont say something. I hope if this push towards commercial mutual-equity has heart and merit, they will...but alas, I cannot judge the will of the gods...only to preach the tenets they profess at us.

You could however, self police by viewing the acceptable behavior, and its discussion, here :

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=650356

Until then you'll give it a rest.

Deal?

Neva !

Not a chance.

I might consider it, if you took your article, reformatted it to fit in thr BBS protocol (it will, pics and all), scrub the reference to your blogsterprise, and posted it as a forum discussion on your experiment....not as a flyby link to your blogsterprise which pays you if people agree with your obviously flawed...well, I'll say "misinformed" from now on, hows that for a concession ?..... sciencefair project, and buy a copy of the winner on your recommendation.

You could also allow the comment posted earlier to your blog to go through, or would you perhaps not appreciate folks viewing a formal discourse on the validity of your experiment ?

I'm starting to notice you've done a few of these, actually... I have more investigating to do.... I shall return :)
 
No experience with stainless rods or ultrasonic.
Rule3: +1
My results with straight corncob with car polish added, show it shinier and slicker than mixes of walnut and corncob or just walnut, both with the same polish--normally Nu-finish.
 
fairly interesting as was the sideshow.
myself I found out quicklly that's it's best (IME anyway) to de-cap after case cleaning.
returning home with saved/scavenged cases I wash them in hot soapy water held in a 'cargo bag' type of mesh bag. some amount of crud/grunge and dirt is washed off here and in rinse off. onto a large towel for drying then into my always pilot flame on gas range oven to completely dry - thats' that on to polishing.
I wore out a twin drum thumlers. bought a midway deal buzzer then later on a smaller buzzer that says it can be used wet (have'nt tryed yet but may when appropiate medium is found - ceramic maybe?)
the buzzers do a better, faster job than the tumbler. the smaller I load with handgun brass 90% of it's use, noticeably faster than the larger Midway bought frankfort.
media is a 50/50 of walnut and cob with a compound added and a good sprinkle of bon ami. chlorine free. I load and leave 'em overnight in a spare storage closet well insulated.
look great when done and easier IMO sizeing/de-capping I don't sweat the primer cup-but do check for the flash hole when re-primeing.
mine shoot as good as any other loaders loads - the 9mm+P Power Pistol under 124gr Rem GS is a particular good shooting load wish the slugs could be found cheaper.
I shot a feral/wild pig smallish one dressed out a 110lbs base of skull/neck juncturethe slug busted out a golf-ball size chunk of bone and meat/tissue. the head was just a'flopping the neck bone busted and cord sevdered. could'nt find the slug, shot out of my Marlin camp 9mm
 
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