Cast 223 Boolits

[Dr.Zubrato]

Thanks to a very generous THR member, armoredman, who paid forward a really nice deed, I was able to try before I buy a mold for casting 223 to feed my AR.
I looked around for any spare powder I had, and came across 5744, and some IMR3031. I had more of the 5744 so I chose that as my start, knowing it most likely would not cycle the action (spoiler alert, it didnt)
I chose a starting load of 11gr 5744, for a 55grain lubed and gas checked, sized to .224 , flared the case mouths a bit to not shave any lead, and seated to 2.10"
I shot these 5 rounds at 25 yards, standing, and I know if I benchrested these I might be able to cloverleaf them, or put them into one hole. (I did shoot about 2 inches low, however. I should have been shooting out of the notch, but chose precision over accuracy, having a point of reference on the target I could put the red dot on)
The action did not cycle, and the recoil felt exactly like a hot 22lr. I did however, feel the action start to unlock, but that's it, every round had to be cycled by hand.
I realized when it was too late I could have swapped out my H2 buffer for a Car buffer, but I was out of rounds..


While cleaning, I didn't notice any leading, the barrel looked great, but the powder at a starting load is pretty dang dirty. I'm going to start looking into optimal powders, and boolit mold designs.

For a while, I was on the fence, and I was tipping on the other side to resign from casting for the AR, and just say it's an FMJ only world, but after today, and looking at those beauties I can say I can't wait to start casting for my AR. Even where I'm at now as a complete noob, there's something cool about having a bolt action 22 AR that can rock 30rd mags without conversion kits

 

[plmitch]

I have good luck with:

Lyman 225415 GC bullet/lubed
14 gr-IMR 4227
Blue Lube

or

MP 227-65 bullet GC/lubed
18.5 gr. H4895
Blue Lube



Bullets are coww, alum .011 GC and lubed in:

Blue Lube recipe
60 % Beeswax
15% Johnson's Paste Wax
20% ATP Blue Lube
5 % White Lith. grease

 

[Dr.Zubrato]

Thanks for the load info! I'll definitely be looking for those at my cabelas!
Few questions, though
Which of those powders meters best?
Will they cycle a car buffer reliably?
How is the accuracy and what is your twist rate?

5744 meters pretty terribly, and I havent really found it to be really accurate, but I only purchased it on a whim during a severe powder shortage.

I've got a 1:7" twist, so I'm eyeballing the NOE 70gr 5 cavity. I know oldandslow has success with that particular combo and a reduced power spring.

 

[plmitch]

1. No difference to me.
2. Should.
3. 1:8" accuracy is good enough for what I need, shooting cans.

 

[grubbylabs]

I have not had the time I need to finish up my load development but so far I am happy with my cast bullets in my AR.

I need to find the IMR 4227 data so I can give that a try. But so far I think H335 is getting me close enough.

 

[GLOOB]

I assume you're using gas checks? With gas checks, you should not have any problem with fouling in the barrel. The gas mechanism is what you will likely need to clean out.

Using H335, I am able to make a cast 223 load that will cycle my rifle and shoot accurately. But I only get about 100-130 shots before I need to clean the gas mechanism.

 

[grubbylabs]

I don't have issues with leading, but I am still trying to figure out the accuracy part of it, I have only loaded 100 or less test rounds and most of those were shot at work and not put on paper. I need to load some more get them on paper and really see what they will do.

 

[TenDriver]

4227 meters like a champ.

 

[Dr.Zubrato]

Kind of a dumb question, but I dont think most people have asked, what kind of terminal performance are you guys getting?
I get the feeling these rounds are used mostly for target practice, but has anyone tried to use them for hunting?
I shot a few rounds into some books, and when I tried to recover the rounds I found they had completely disintegrated into a fine lead powder, the only thing that held together was the gas check!
Having seen that, I think the only thing I would hunt with the lead bullets would be rabbits.
Do cast rounds have at least some semblance of tumbling/yawing ballistics the FMJ rounds do?

 

[grubbylabs]

I have never shot any thing with a 223 but cast bullets are quit popular for hunting among casters.

 

[chris in va]

I managed to lock up the piston on my AK using gas checked cast boolits. Fired 80 rounds and a lead ring formed around the piston head, requiring the RO to whack it open with a hammer.

I can only imagine what it would do to an AR's gas system.

 

[A Pause for the Coz]

Been playing with this my self. Tried the 55 gr Lyman bullet and HM223-60 mold.
AR's are fussy with cast bullets, but it can be done.
Thing I have found to get a accurate load you have to under speed them so the action does not function.

With the faster rifle powders that perform so well in 30 cal loads. RL-7, 5744, 4198, 4227 ect.
There is a real fine line to get an acceptable load accuracy wise and operating the action.
Getting a 50 yard plinking load is not to hard. Getting a 100 yard shooter is another story.
Does not take much to over spin the bullet in a 1-9 twist barrel to loose stability at 100 yards.
At least thats what i am finding. My kinda good 2 inch group at 50 yards turns into a 8 inch pattern at 100.
Usually loads in the 14.5gr range seem to work.
Still getting around 2000 fps range. ( dont have my notes handy)

Having better luck with slower powders. H335 and H4895 ect. Seems to give good gas for the action but slows the fps down some. Hitting 1700's to mid 1800's I am thinking a velocity in the 1500 fps range would be best. Havent found that load yet and still operate the action.
I have 18.5 gr of Varget actually grouping at 100 yards.
Albeit a 4 inch group. Its shoots very well at 50 yards.

Still working at it. I am wondering if a heavier bullet would not be better, Like 75gr or so.
Also (Searching my kingdom for a rifle length M16 barrel with a 1 in 12 twist would be a sweet find)

Also trying powder coating some bullets. finished some today. Hoping that will help hold them together at the faster twist rates. Dont know, but will try them.
All the above being said. It could be some thing I have missed like bullet size, Hardness ect and all this load chasing could just be tail chasing.

 

[A Pause for the Coz]

I managed to lock up the piston on my AK using gas checked cast boolits. Fired 80 rounds and a lead ring formed around the piston head, requiring the RO to whack it open with a hammer.

I can only imagine what it would do to an AR's gas system.

Whats your load? I have shot literally thousand of cast loads from my AK and SKS. Plus thousands more cast from my AR in 300 Black out. No real leading to speak of.

Here is my formula. WW lead, Sized to .312, Gas checked. Ahead of 17gr of RL-7 or H110 gets me in the 1600-1700 fps range.
Set sight at 300 meters and hit POA at 100 yards. No leading at all.
I do clean the gas tube and rod with ATF once in a while.

 

[Dr.Zubrato]

Assuming you didnt have any leading after you punched the barrel, couldnt you run a few, 5.56 rounds the same way people do with 22 conversion kits?
To clean the gas tube I mean.
Also: AR's can be very reliable with cast boolits:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156326-AR-15-500-Round-Cast-Bullet-Test
I think the nastiest thing about it would probably be the bullet lube, which powdercoating would probably fix!

 

[plmitch]

I have not had any leading problems with our AR's using cast, several thousand rounds so far.

 

[Weber]

I have not had any leading problems with our AR's using cast, several thousand rounds so far.

Do yours cycle the bolt?

 

[plmitch]

Yes...

 

[Dr.Zubrato]

If you guys get your bolt to cycle, could you let us know your buffer/spring info and maybe gas system?
Do you use a low power spring, with a light buffer combo? and what twist rate are you working with?

 

[grubbylabs]

This thread has re kindled the fire a little bit.

 

[oldandslow]

dz, 1/10/14

Nine hundred cast 0.223 boolits through my LMT 1:7 AR with no leading of the chamber, barrel or bolt. I'm using a NOE 70 grain mold (drops at 72 grains) with wheelweight equivalent alloy ( 2.2% antimony, 0.4% tin and the rest lead). Boolits are sized to 0.225", gas checked and heat treated at 465 degrees and then water dropped to increase their BHN from 9 to 16. Then they're pan lubed and loaded. Powders used in both a RCBS rockchucker supreme and Dillon 650 are IMR-4064 and W-748 (the W-748 meters much better). Velocities run at 1950 ft/sec. with 20 grain W748. Once I get above 2000 ft/second the boolit base fragments off the nose and when tested in water-soaked paperbook media I get full weight recovery in recovered boolits at velocities below 2000 ft/sec and much fragmenting above 2000 ft/second.

I hunt pigs with my other rifles but believe that the AR rounds at cast-boolit velocities are not adequate for anything but small pigs.

I did have action cycling issues with the normal-power buffer spring but this resolved with a Wolf reduced-power buffer spring. Accuracy is 2.4 MOA.

While casting AR boolits was the only option to keep shooting during the last great-hoarding now that I can get FMJ's for $0.09 each I've put my AR cast boolits away for the future. Good luck.

best wishes- oldandslow