casting bullets for the ak47?

[cajun47]

i have ton of lead weights from shrimp trawls and diver weights. im wondering if i can cast lead 7.62 bullets for the ak47. is it alright to shoot pure lead bullets in a rifle?(no copper).

what about pure lead bullets in all rifles. i may make some for 7.62x54, 30-06, .270, ect.

 

[klw]

gas tube

I'm not sure but doesn't that gun have a gas tube? If so the lead and lubricant might well plug it up. Also lead bullets can be very touchy about powder choice and how much powder will yield an accurate load. I would think that it might be true that by the time you found an accurate load you might not have enough power to cycle the action.

 

[40mmHEDP]

Sometimes I cant just sit back and read some of the advice given without making a comment...

7.62x39 is a great cartridge for cast loading. Small case, heavy bullets and weapons that will eat anything. I load and shoot a ton of cast out of both AK's and SKS. Look around and you will find tons of recipies using Lee's mold's(C312-155-2R, C312-160-2R) that by the way, were made for THIS cartridge. loads that push the bullet at about 1900 fps are common and will cycle the rifles you listed everytime.

In short they work great, the only issue is collecting your brass the way these rifles throw it!

This is what they look like.

 

[klw]

Didn't know that

So there is no problem with the lubricant gumming something up?

 

[cloudcroft]

40mmHEDP,

Sorry, but just because you've done it doesn't mean it's a SMART thing to do.

BTW, you reload very nice-looking ammo. Well done.


cajun47,

Like I and others told you over at The Firing Line forum re: this same post: No lead bullets in guns with a gas tubes/pistons. Buy bulk FMJs instead.

-- John D.

 

[SSN Vet]

following this thread with great interest......and bumping it to the top.....

so what about lube fouling the gas port???

this may be the stone that tips the scale that puts me into casting.....

 

[fatelk]

Sorry, but just because you've done it doesn't mean it's a SMART thing to do.

What specifically is so un-smart about it?

I am by no means an expert and I'm sure those with far more casting experience than I will weigh in, but years ago I shot hundreds of cast bullets through an SKS, and probably a couple thousand through an M1 carbine with no problems. You just need a hard alloy (pure lead is too soft, linotype is good), a gas check bullet, and the proper recipe.

IIRC, it's not the lubricant that would plug the gas port, but potentially the lead itself. I think a hard bullet with a gas check will solve that problem, at least I never had any problems.

My purpose for loading cast in semi-autos was to develop a cheap, low power load for plinking, not necessarily something practical for any kind of hunting or self defence. I quit when I realized it really was not worth my time, especially when Wolf ammo was $70 a case. Even with the current cost of ammo, you might find that with the initial expense of casting equipment, linotype, gas checks, time involved, etc.- it might be something not remotely practical unless you actually enjoy it. If you do- do some research, be safe and have fun!

cloudcroft- no offense intended, but your post came off as a little condescending with no evidence to back up your opinion.

 

[trickyasafox]

i reload 7.62x39. if i found a mold for it on the cheap, i'd cast for it in a heart beat. i don't think its unwise to do so at all. lotta people cast for their sks'. nothing wrong with a bit of experimenting

 

[klw]

Metal Deposites

I probably put well over 2000 rounds per year through each of several magnum handguns. All use linotype bullets. If I'm careful about the lubricant used, I do not get metal buildup on the guns. Lyman Blackpowder Gold, for example, keeps the vaporized lead soft so that it can just be wiped off. But before I discovered that the linotype buildups would have to be literally chipped off the guns with a hammer and screwdriver.

I've always stayed away from reloading rifles with gas systems because I thought that conventional wisdom was that the lubricant or the bullet metal itself would clog the works up. So do we still think that that is true?

 

[Gewehr98]

40mmHEDP does it.

That doesn't mean it's the smartest thing to do, and I'd love to take a borescope to his gas port and gas block. Cleaning lead out of a gas system is a downright pain in the tuchus, at best. I'd never recommend it for a gas-operated autoloading firearm. I run cast boolits in my Remington Model 8 and 81 autoloaders, but they're long-recoil operated, no gas port to foul with lead.

Even with gas checks, the lead bullet smears across the gas port of an AK/SKS. Lead bullets "obturate" or "bump up" as chamber pressures peak to fit the bore snugly. (Think along the lines of a marshmallow being squeezed by the ends, and its diameter getting larger as a result) The gas check will act as a scraper and keep the rifling clean after the lead goes by, but by then it's too late for the gas port and the little bit of lead that shaved off to enter that gap in the rifling.

I've reloaded tens of thousands of 7.62x39 rounds for my AK and SKS rifles, and discovered that even soft-nosed jacketed bullets will leave lead deposits in the gas block and gas piston face. I cringe at what a cast bullet moving 2400fps would do to the gas system. Some folks turn off the gas spigots on their Yugo SKS rifles to make single-shot rifles out of them. That's all well and good, but the lead bullets are still smearing across the gas ports, regardless if you run Lyman #2 alloy or straight Linotype.

Berry's sells a cheap plated bullet that runs quite nicely in the AK/SKS. Likewise, I buy cheap jacketed 124gr bullets from Golden West Brass, they may be more than retail cast bullets or my own wheelweight creations, but I put a definite value on cleaning out lead fouling from gas systems.

 

[klw]

Useful answer

Useful answer. Thanks!

 

[snuffy]

Even with gas checks, the lead bullet smears across the gas port of an AK/SKS. Lead bullets "obturate" or "bump up" as chamber pressures peak to fit the bore snugly. (Think along the lines of a marshmallow being squeezed by the ends, and its diameter getting larger as a result) The gas check will act as a scraper and keep the rifling clean after the lead goes by, but by then it's too late for the gas port and the little bit of lead that shaved off to enter that gap in the rifling.

What would cause a gas port to "scrape" lead from a bullet? If it scrapes lead from a lead bullet, why doesn't it scrape copper from a jacketed bullet?

Your explanation of obturation is spot on---, BUT the obturation occurs just in front of the chamber where the pressure is at it's highest. The gas ports on most gas operated auto's is way up front where the pressure has dropped, the bullet is all done obturating at that point.

Since you also posted over on TFL, did you read the article by C.E.Harris?
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13453
He does say that there's more fouling with lead bullets than occurs with jacketed, it has to be cleaned out. He also used some lubricant there to cut down on accumulations.

I don't own either a sks or ak-47, but I do own an ar-15. Over at cast boolits, there's several shooters using cast in their ar's with little to no problems. I may try that just to see if it can be done. I have two molds for .224 boolits, it would be nice to have those as a fall-back position if J bullets become hard to get.

 

[Gewehr98]

I read Ed Harris religiously.

His original article on handloading the 7.62x39 got me into the game, and I've since discovered I have a 2 MOA Bulgarian SLR-95 thanks to the technique.

As for obturation, yes it happens at the highest pressures. However, the bullet bumps up to fill the bore, creating a very tight (and essential for accuracy) bullet/bore fit. The lead bullet still presses nicely against the gas port as it accelerates towards the muzzle, and the copper gas check scraper won't clean the lead left in there. Does the copper gas check also leave some of itself in the gas port? Yup, I'll take pictures of the lead/copper fouling on my gas piston sometime - but the copper gas check is considerably harder than the lead bullet it's crimped onto, and less of it departs for the gas system.

I've experienced lead fouling in both my AK and SKS rifles, as my own hardcore experimentation with cast bullets led me down that path. Be they linotype, wheelweight, Lyman #2 alloy, or gas-checked variations thereof, Alox, Rooster, Javelina, or whichever lube, my gas piston and gas cylinder in particular were seriously lead-plated. That lead came from somewhere, and I might be off, but I'd wager it came through the gas port in the barrel vs. somewhere else. Just me guessin', mind you, but I also got some lead on the gas port scraper tool found in the average AK buttstock trapdoor cleaning kit. Hmmm...

I'd attribute Ed's aforementioned article to him having an AK with a nicely-chamfered, no-burr gas port. In a perfect world, that'd be hunky-dory. Even then, he still got gas piston and gas cylinder lead fouling, and he recommended using Marvel Mystery Oil to keep them lubed after lead removal. Anybody who shoots an AK on a regular basis knows that'll burn into smoke and carbon after just a few rounds. I note that cast bullet users also keep their bullet velocities down, which is fine if that's what you're looking for. Me, I keep my AK velocities around 2300-2400fps, which means the sight range settings are calibrated for the round. A heavier, slower lead bullet, even if it doesn't leave lead in the gas system, means you learn a new range table. Not a problem, just a learning curve. Ed's a neat guy, and I applaud him for trying the unusual, but in all my years at Camp Perry, I didn't see that many cast-bullet Garand, M14/M1A, and AR-15/M16 shooters. Maybe I just wasn't looking hard enough.

Again, I've farted around with all sorts of rifle cast boolits beginning about 15 years ago. Bolt guns and recoil-operated autoloaders, no problems. Leverguns, Ruger #1, and Sharps, no problems. Gas guns, not worth the hassle.

Which reminds me, I've got a batch of Lyman 457132s I've got to cast soon, now that I have a new batch of beeswax for the lubrisizer...

 

[BruceB]

I regret to tell all you nay-sayers that loading cast bullets for gas-operated semi-auto rifles is VERY practical, and in my rather extensive experience such loads do not foul excessively.

I've used my personally-cast bullets in most of the common military rifle types, including the SKS, Garand, M1A/-14, FAL, 1918A2 BAR, and others.

About two years back I fired a grand total of over 600 cast-bullet rounds through a Garand without cleaning, and it was still running nicely when I decided to strip it to see what the innards looked like. The gas system and gasport showed ZERO metallic fouling, and the bore was in similar shape. The same situation occurred last year, when I ran a string of over 500 cast rounds through my M1A, also without cleaning.....NO metallic fouling. Cleanup in both rifles was simple, but they sure were filthy.

I have experimented at some length with cast bullets in that M1A, as it's now nearing 5000 rounds since new. ALL except the first 500 break-in rounds were cast-bullet loads, with a dozen or more powders, and an equal number of different bullet designs (at least!). The rifle tolerates some loads that astonish me, with powders both "too slow" and "too fast" in the common 'wisdom' of those who've never done it. CAST BULLETS ARE DIFFERENT, VERY DIFFERENT from jacketed loads. If you want to see HOW different, go to

www.cb.gunloads.com

and search for "M1A" .....I reported extensively on my testing, to the tune of about three pages of posts.

Cast bullets won't work in gas guns, you say??? Hah!

 

[Gewehr98]

Bruce, never said they didn't work in gas guns.

You can make them work. You can also have bad results, as I have. YMMV, of course.

 

[BruceB]

G98, pard;

Absolutely correct! When I referred to the fact that they "work", I should have explained that it might take a lot of effort and experimentation before they work WELL.

The difference between a "good" cast-load group and a "bad" cast-load group can sometimes be measured in feet, instead of inches. Jacketed loads more commonly show a difference of a couple of inches, from good to bad. However, patience is a virtue in casting, as in a lot of other things we do, and I do enjoy the search for success.

For beginning casters, handguns offer the easiest way to get started, as good results often come rather quickly. Rifles are another breed of cat altogether. I managed to create a load for that M1A which put 10 cast rounds in 0.60" from fifty yards, using the issued iron sights and 64-year-old eyeballs, but it took some time and effort. I didn't think I could see that well!

 

[Gewehr98]

Damn.

I've got another 23 years to go before I can get my cast boolits to work well in my M14NM?

Sounds like an awful lot of development and lead time. I'll stay on the amateur track with my H&G #68s, and .459" Postells and Schmittzers, I guess.