Choosing the proper Brinell hardness

[wiiawiwb]

I have a question about choosing the correct bullet hardness for my Rossi 92 levergun in .45 Colt. I will be ordering from Missouri Bullet and looking at the SWC (which loads just fine in my Rossi) and I can choose a Brinell hardness of 12 or 18.

For my Ruger SRH, I chose a hardness of 12 because I was keeping my loads within the load ranges in my Lyman 49th. That meant CUPS pressure of ~12,500.

There is no CUPS pressure data for the .45 Colt in a rifle (levergun in my case) in my Lyman book nor can I find any SAAMI specs. Any idea where I can find what the CUPS pressure would be in the Rossi 92 under normal load ranges?

 

[Walkalong]

The SAMMI max pressure is for the .45 Colt caliber, regardless of what it is fired in. You'll get more velocity with some powders in the longer barrel, and the alloy must be strong enough to take it, but 12 BHN should be fine if it fits well. I would certainly start with that. The lube must be adequate for the longer barrel as well, but you'll likely be fine.

 

[wiiawiwb]

Thanks!

 

[Mostly Lead]

Posted before reading in detail...

 

[snuffy]

If you were to give the folks at Rossi a call, they'd tell you what they told me when I called them with the same ??? The Rossi can handle levergun pressures found in some reloading books. The loading manuals sometimes have cartridges like the 45 colt listed in 3 levels, colt SAA loads, levergun loads, then the Ruger ONLY blackhawk loads.

Depending on the boolit weight from MBC, you should be able to get around 1400 fps from that lever action Rossi. I have gotten my Rossi M-92 to that level with the Lee 255 RNFP, the traditional 45 colt boolit. It eats them, then begs for more.

I don't know what lube MBC is using, but it may not be up to the challenge of a longer barrel at higher velocities. My boolits were lubed with carnuba red and were about 14 BHN, no leading. Nowadays I powder coat,(PC), all my cast lead, so lube is no longer any concern. I could shoot pure lead PD'd it would not lead, but I doubt it would be accurate.

Read Lee's manual. In there he talks about pressure and lead strength as it relates to the BHN numbers. Some disagree with him about his actual numbers, but in practice it works. Softer lead deforms under too high pressure which is why it causes leading.

 

[Duvel]

"Softer lead deforms under too high pressure which is why it causes leading."

I'll cautiously disagree with that statement - Too high a BHN and load pressure won't obturate the bullet, causing gas cutting, and leading.

While I only load my New Vaquero to Tier 2, PB (BHN around 5) has never caused issues - Certainly a properly sized bullet is necessary.

.02

 

[Sunray]

I believe advertising a Brinell hardness is mostly a marketing thing. Doubt it makes any difference. Drave any cast bullet fast enough and it'll lead.
Hodgdon(where Lee manual's data comes from) gives only handgun loads for non-Rugers on their site. Max loads are running 12 to 13 thousandish PSI or CUP(it's one or the other. There's no mathematical converting.).
SAAMI specs are for manufacturers.

 

[Duvel]

"I believe advertising a Brinell hardness is mostly a marketing thing."

Likely.

Though PB in full-go 10mm would probably not achieve the intended result

 

[ljnowell]

I believe advertising a Brinell hardness is mostly a marketing thing. Doubt it makes any difference. Drave any cast bullet fast enough and it'll lead.

Hodgdon(where Lee manual's data comes from) gives only handgun loads for non-Rugers on their site. Max loads are running 12 to 13 thousandish PSI or CUP(it's one or the other. There's no mathematical converting.).

SAAMI specs are for manufacturers.

And you would be wrong. Hardness matters greatly.

 

[popper]

Hardness matters greatly.

What we really want to measure is yeild pressure but we use BHN. Consider than 'normally' we want the load pressure to expand the Pb/neck against the chamber - seal it- jump to the throat/lands without distorting, then get screwed down the barrel properly. And expand at the target. We attempt to solve the first with oversized cast that just chamber, will fill the throat and get sized by the barrel. If we are lucky it won't strip on the rifling. Either will work, depends on the intended use. Plan on relubing if it's the blue stuff.

 

[Dudedog]

I have shot both the MBC 200gr BHN 12 SWCs and the BHN 18 SWCs in .45 ACP.
I have used both the lead lubed and the coated. No leading issues with either one at .45 ACP vels and pressures. Lately I spend the few extra $ and get the coated ones.
( MBC offers THR members a 5% discount with the coade. The code is in BDS PIF thread)
I found for the milder loads 700-850ish the BHN 12 shot better noticeably better. For heavier loads 850+ it was about tie, but the harder ones seemed maybe a hair better.

No idea if the .45 LC bullets will behave the same for you in your use but this might possibly be helpful.
MBC does offer sample packs so I would pick one and also order a sample pack of the other.
That way you could do a side by side comparison and see what shots best for you.
I have been very happy with MBC and they are good people to do business with.

I don't own and have never loaded for .45 LC.
Having said that if your target vels are about 850 or less I would go with the softer ones, higher I would go with the harder ones.
(hardness is not so much velocity but pressure but higher vels in general = higher pressure)

MBC gives this on their site for choosing hardness
Optimum BHN = CUPS / (1422 x .90)

MBC does use a blue lube but it worked well for me with the .357 140gr "Zingers" anywhere between 1000-1300 fps. Don't know how much velocity the HI-TEK coated ones will take but I hear they work well at higher vels.

Hardness matters but bullet to bore fit is more important. IMO (of course I maybe out to lunch here)

SAAMI specs are for manufacturers

?? - I think they are a big concern for reloaders. I certainly pay attention to them. If the SAAMI MAX pressure is 32K PSI (insert number and PSI or CUP) I don't want to reload ammo that is might be higher pressure than that.

 

[ljnowell]

What we really want to measure is yeild pressure but we use BHN. Consider than 'normally' we want the load pressure to expand the Pb/neck against the chamber - seal it- jump to the throat/lands without distorting, then get screwed down the barrel properly. And expand at the target. We attempt to solve the first with oversized cast that just chamber, will fill the throat and get sized by the barrel. If we are lucky it won't strip on the rifling. Either will work, depends on the intended use. Plan on relubing if it's the blue stuff.

Again, hardness matters greatly in any equation. Too hard or too soft, makes no difference. Either way wrong is wrong.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

12 is a good hardness for .45 Colt in my experience. Now, I have not loaded any for a rifle, so that may or may not make a difference with the longer barrel.

I have loaded straight wheel weights which are 10-12 BHN from light Trail Boss plinking loads to some insane "Ruger Only" loads in my Blackhawk and have never had an issue with leading. BHN is definitely something to consider, but proper fit and proper lube is just as important.

In fact if the bullet is a couple thousandths too small a harder bullet will lead more than a soft one.

 

[ljnowell]

In fact if the bullet is a couple thousandths too small a harder bullet will lead more than a soft one.

That's the reason why hardness matters. When sizing isn't perfect, hardness matters even more. I've shot 18bhn bullets down to 650fps in 38 special loads and 12bhn bullets over 1400 fps in 45 colt.

Statements such as Sunrays above about it being a marketing ploy are ridiculous.

 

[LiveLife]

advertising a Brinell hardness is mostly a marketing thing. Doubt it makes any difference.

For me, it made a difference.

My Taurus Mil Pro PT145 SA/DA has oversized barrel to the tune of .455"+. I used to shoot harder 22-24 BHN lead bullets and even 18 BHN MBC 200 gr SWC (IDP #1) leaded the barrel badly regardless of the powder/charges used and accuracy was very poor.

Since getting a larger sized bullet than groove diameter of the barrel was out of the question, I tested softer 12 BHN 200 gr SWC (Bullseye #1) with 5.0 gr W231/HP-38. The softer bullet base deformed well enough to essentially eliminate leading and accuracy improved. Even lighter 4.0 gr charge of Red Dot/Promo works well with the softer bullet.

I have done comparison range tests with 18/12 BHN MBC 200 gr SWC using Sig/SA/RIA 1911 and M&P45. With lighter target loads using W231/HP-38/Red Dot/Promo, the 12 BHN bullets get my vote.

 

[Walkalong]

Alloy composition also makes a difference. Bullets are generally pure lead, lead & Tin, or Lead, Tin, & Antimony.

Anyone trying to cast a bullet that can take high pressure, doesn't lead, and can still expand in game without breaking up understands this.

"Yield strength" is where it is at, but BHN is the number we get and we have to work with that. Two different 12 BHN or two different 18 BHN bullets can be alloyed differently from each other and still have the same 12 or 18 BHN.

Not to mention water dropping, or heat hardening.

But it does make a difference.

There for a while when everyone thought harder was better (It's better because they keep telling us is is, right?), the companies did use a higher BHN number as advertising a "better" bullet.

Better for what?