COL on 17 Rem with 25gr V-Max

[Classic55belair]

Okay. So I am mentally wandering through a gray area in my reloading manual. I know from past experience with V-Max that the COL can be a bit longer than what is listed in my Lee Load Manual due to the bullets irregular ogive, but to what end???. The Details...

17 Rem COL is listed at 2.150" COL. With my Lee bullet seat die bottomed out, I am hitting 2.188". Is .038" variant too much? I can, per lee customer service do 1 of 2 things.

1. Using emery paper sand the seating mandrel face down to the desired COL setting... in short explanation
2. Since the ogive of V-Max is more steep, the bullet jump is increased when set to the COL of 2.150". To decrease the bullet jump I can seat the bullet less deep into the case, decreasing the bullet jump and increasing the COL.

 

[Sunray]

"...Lee bullet seat die bottomed out..." Isn't setup correctly. Set it up so the shell holder just kisses the bottom of the die with the ram all the way up and adjust the seater plug to give the OAL. Forget the ogive and measure from the case base to the point of the bullet.
Sanding steel 38 thou with emery cloth would take 100 years. Emery cloth is for polishing trigger parts.

 

[rcmodel]

2.150" is the SAAMI Max length for the .17 Remington.
That may have something to do with fitting box magazines that have spacers in them to take up room in a .223 length magazine?

I don't think 'sanding down' the end of the stem is going to do anything to help as that is not the part the bullet contacts.



What you might be able to do is take the seating plug out of the threaded stem and shim it down lower inside the stem??


PS: You can't screw it down to kiss the shell holder, as the seating die crimp section will be more then fully engaging the case mouth and crimping, whether you want it too or not.

To set it, run an empty case up in the die, then screw the die down until you feel it start to contack the case mouth.

Then back it off 1/8 turn and lock it down.

rc

 

[cfullgraf]

I do not crimp most of rifle rounds, including 17 Remington, so I set up my seating die so that it does not crimp. Depending on how the Lee die is made, kissing the shell holder may crimp, even over crimp, the case to the bullet.

With a case in the shell holder, I run the ram up and turn the die down until the crimp ring touches the case. I then back it off one half or a full turn and lock the die down. I then set the seater plug to the desired overall length.

Yes, most data lists the case base to bullet tip for overall length. Measuring to the ogive is not a bad thing but there are so many different measuring tools out there for measuring to the ogive that a comparable measurement between tools is difficult to obtain.

If you still cannot get the desired overall length, contact Lee, they may have a longer seater plug.

 

[Classic55belair]

The press is set up correctly per the Lee die instructions. This is the email correspondence from Lee Customer service from the time I asked about this issue with my 223 V-MAX COL issue as I stated before. This is email #2. I may not of explained this properly before, but it is the open end of the seater plug, not the upper flat face. The removal of material on the open end allows the plug to sit lower instead of bottoming out in the seater plugs housing in the die.

Hi Name Removed,

The very low drag (VLD) bullets that Hornady makes have a secant (very steep) ogive that allows the bullet to slide farther into the bullet seating plug. This causes a loss of adjustment and does not allow the bullet to be seated as deeply. A quick fix is to chuck the your seating plug up in your drill and polishing a little off the length of the plug on the end that the bullet goes in. Use 180 grit emery paper, a file or sharpening stone for this. If you make this adjustment remember to polish a bevel on the outside edge of the plug after you shorten it. The cavity that the plug sits in inside the die is cone shaped and the slight bevel on the plug allows the plug to center in the die. This fix will get you back to loading today.

If this is not something you want to do let me know and I will send you a plug that will seat your bullet deeper.

Here is something else to consider. The maximum overall cartridge length (col) for the 223 is 2.260". Most guns shoot better with a shorter bullet jump. Bullet jump is the distance the bullet travels before encountering the rifling in the bore. Loading you cartridges at a col shorter than 2.247" will give a longer bullet jump. Loading your cartridges at 2.250" or 2.260" col will decrease the amount of bullet jump and likely yield more accurate ammunition. The steep ogive on the VLD bullets actually exaggerates the amount of bullet jump because the steeper ogive of the VLD bullet takes longer to come in contact with the rifling.

Thanks,

Name Removed
Customer Service

Lee Precision, Inc.
4275 Highway U
Hartford, WI 53027
phone: 262-673-3075

 

[witchhunter]

The quick fix is to adjust your die correctly or buy a set of RCBS dies and adjust them correctly. When your die is touching the shellholder, the die should be crimping the case mouth. This is unnecessary. Adjust as RC and Chuck noted. You have to measure maximum COL if you are loading to magazine length, otherwise, you can load it as long as you like if it will fit in your chamber. If you are having problems with your seater stem and the plug contact with your ogive, you can use JB Weld or epoxy to make it contact the bullet better or build up a little for length. I would have Lee send another seater plug right away also, in case you screw it up. The directions to adjust your dies from the manufacturer are not the same way the veteran loaders on THR do it. The manufacturers tell you how to load to SAMMI specs, we don't care about SAMMI specs, we have our own chamber's specs to use. That and our magazine space. That is the difference we are speaking of. Using your own spec's dictated by your own chamber and adjusting correctly for it will get you better, more accurate ammo that will last for many reloadings.

 

[cfullgraf]

i looked up my COL with 17 Remington and I seat the 25 grain V-Maxs to 2.150".

I think I have Redding dies for 17 Remington but they could RCBS. I buy either depending on what I find.

As witchhunter said, you do not necessarily load to the printed specs as long as the appropriate care is exercised. (Going longer is easier than shorter)

 

[Classic55belair]

I did end up shortening the open end of the seater plug. And it worked fine. Range tested a few rounds today and they are fantastic at 250yds. I appreciate the info on the SAAMI specs and the info on the COL relating to magazines and not specifically to chambers. Thanks for the wisdom.

 

[gamestalker]

Sounds like the seating die is set up / adjusted incorrectly. Although I don't load this cartridge, I've yet to come across a seating die that wouldn't reach the bullet, thus allow me to seat it to the desired oal. I can't imagine a seating stem having to be bottomed out, and still not reaching the bullets enough to attain the desired oal. IMO, this could only happen if the die isn't correctly set up, as I described below.

The way I set up a bottle neck seating die is, I put an empty piece of brass in the shell holder, run the ram to full extension, then I thread the seating die in until it makes contact the case mouth, then back it out 1/2 - 3/4 turn, or less if it's enough to make sure it doesn't touch the case mouth (crimp), then lock it down. Then it's a simple process of adjusting the seating stem down until it's seating the bullets to the desired oal.

GS