Collectable Doubles & Value

[XxWINxX94]

Went to the gun show today and almost bought a vintage L.C. Smith Field grade, and a Damascus barrel Parker "G"? grade.

The Smith was old, and had been used, but the price was fair. $500, but there were some things that turned me off. First it had no case-colors left on the reciever, and my blue book implied that all of them had case-colors on them when they were new. So were the recievers on double barrel field grade L.C. Smiths always case colored? The one I looked at was a light grey color on the reciever. Wood was in decent shape and barrel blueing was good.
It also had a Hawkins(?) recoil pad on it, which also turned me off, because it wasn't original. Manufacture was in the 1913-1950 era, so It did catch my eye.

So, for vintage L.C. Smiths, do recoil pads take away value? And also were all L.C. Smiths case-colored recievers?

Then there was a "G"? grade Parker. I didn't recognize it at first because it was in such good shape. Literally 90% bluing on the barrels and the wood was nearly 95% with only a few knicks. The guy only wanted $835 for it and that struck me as odd, because the damascus Parkers are normally worth a fortune in that good of shape. I came to find out it had a 1'' by .25'' dent on the left barrel towards the muzzle. You could see the imperfection by looking down the barrel. The seller claimed it was an "easy fix," but I was just not sure of what that would do to value, so I walked away.

Are dents an "easy fix?" or was I just trying to be lured into a trap?

Also, could any fellow collectors point me in the right direction for these type of old shotguns. I'm really looking for another double barrel, and a Parker at a reasonable price would really be a fantastic addition to my collection. Not looking to spend all that much, and condition isn't too much of a factor, as long as its shootable, and is pretty old.

 

[oneounceload]

The seller claimed it was an "easy fix,"

hen you need to ask yourself why he hadn't had that done to improve the value............

 

[451 Detonics]

A good smith with the proper tools can raise a barrel dent rather easily, basically it is done with an expanding plug in the bore. If the bores were bright and shiny and that was the only problem then it was a pretty good price.

Case colors are hard but very thin, many old shotguns had them worn away simply by being carried a lot. Normally traces will remain on the water table even if worn away elsewhere.

 

[XxWINxX94]

hen you need to ask yourself why he hadn't had that done to improve the value

Thats exactly what I did, and then walked away.

good smith with the proper tools can raise a barrel dent rather easily, basically it is done with an expanding plug in the bore. If the bores were bright and shiny and that was the only problem then it was a pretty good price.

Ouch, so I did miss out a little then?

Case colors are hard but very thin, many old shotguns had them worn away simply by being carried a lot. Normally traces will remain on the water table even if worn away elsewhere.

Ok so all the L.C. Smiths are supposed to have the case colors?

 

[451 Detonics]

This is the dent raising tool...many smiths will have this or similar device.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=399/Product/ORIGINAL_ENGLISH_HYDRAULIC_DENT_RAISER

LC Smith has been owned by several different entities in it's history so it is hard to say "all" LCs were case colored but I don't recall seeing any that weren't. However as popular as french grey was it wouldn't surprise me if some were done in that finish.

 

[XxWINxX94]

This is the dent raising tool...many smiths will have this or similar device.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=3...IC_DENT_RAISER

LC Smith has been owned by several different entities in it's history so it is hard to say "all" LCs were case colored but I don't recall seeing any that weren't. However as popular as french grey was it wouldn't surprise me if some were done in that finish.

I see, hopefully I might encounter that Parker again next show. I believe it was a GH grade, manufactured in 1900, and the guy only wanted $835! Correct me if I'm wrong but I just looked at some GH grades on GB and they were all over $2000.

And the Smith was one from the 1913-1950 period, not sure if that makes any difference.
Do you have any idea on recoil pads, is the value extremely diminished if one is on an older collectable shotgun?

 

[Dave McCracken]

Damascus Parkers made in 1900 or so ahve a couple strikes against them.

First, of course, is the Damascus. While strong enough new, there has been 110 years for corrosion to creep in minuscule crevices and weaken the barrels.

Second, this is almost certainly Cursed by The Demon Of Short Chambers.

If you're after a collector piece, hop on it. If you want a shooter, pass it by.

 

[XxWINxX94]

First, of course, is the Damascus. While strong enough new, there has been 110 years for corrosion to creep in minuscule crevices and weaken the barrels.

I see, would this type of corrosion be noticeable? Because when I looked at it, the barrels looked a solid 90%+, only serious imperfection was the dent.

Cursed by The Demon Of Short Chambers

Meaning the chambers wouldn't be ye olde 2 3/4'' ?

 

[451 Detonics]

It could easily be a 2 3/4 inch chamber, you would just have to check that particular gun, 2 1/2 inch shells are available as well as being easy to load. As for the barrel very close examination in bright light is needed. any pits or rust bubbles on the outside of the barrel need a close look with a magnifying glass. Most of the horror stories about damacus barrels stem from badly damaged barrels or people shooting inappropriate loads in them.

I would also advise that you "ring" the barrels. Hang the barrels from the hinge with a piece of string and rap with a rawhide mallet or other striker as long as it is not metal. The barrels should ring like a bell, a buzzing or clunk normally indicate the welds holding the barrels together are broken or the rib is loose.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Ca 1900, most 12 gauges were chambered for a shell we call 2 1/2", but it could also be 2 9/16", 2 5/8" etc. Uniformity is more of a 20th Century fetish. New short shells are availible from Polywad, Gamebore etc.

Damage to Damascus barrels can be insidious. One may look fine, but a microscopic examination reveals voids and gaps.

 

[cfullgraf]

Damascus Parkers made in 1900 or so ahve a couple strikes against them.

First, of course, is the Damascus. While strong enough new, there has been 110 years for corrosion to creep in minuscule crevices and weaken the barrels.

Second, this is almost certainly Cursed by The Demon Of Short Chambers.

If you're after a collector piece, hop on it. If you want a shooter, pass it by.

This is not a poke at Damascus barrels but a statement of their limitations. My Dad belonged to a skeet/trap range in the 1960s and they prohibited shooting Damascus barrel guns at that time.

Add 40-50 more years of age and in my opinion they are best left as beautiful collector pieces.

 

[XxWINxX94]

I see. Well next show I am at hopefully that gun is there and I could buy it for cheap, fix it up, then hang it on my wall.

Also, does anyone else have any idea how much a recoil pad effects collector/original value on a field grade LC Smith?

 

[Jim Watson]

I am not a shotgun collector and cannot say if ALL L.C. Smiths had color case hardening, but given that the one you saw had blue on the barrels and none on the action certainly indicates that gun was. I AM fairly sure that none left the factory in light gray.

 

[Gordon]

Those old Elsies on GB and such if not mint and gold encrusted are sitting there un bought these days for $2000 and more.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Elsies that have aftermarket pads,etc, still are great shooters. Some have more drop than we like now and oft the stocks need a bit of lengthening anyway.

At the range I frequent most is a display on the wall of a more modern shotgun that catastrophically failed with a light target load. The shooter, a friend, escaped with very minor injuries.

Shotguns have about the same working pressures as WWII era grenades.

 

[SwampWolf]

Do you have any idea on recoil pads, is the value extremely diminished if one is on an older collectable shotgun?

Also, does anyone else have any idea how much a recoil pad effects collector/original value on a field grade LC Smith?

A non-factory, after-market recoil pad will always diminish the resale value of any collectable shotgun. How much devaluation is open to debate but I would opine "fairly significantly", depending on the scarcity of the gun. Quoting from the Blue Book of Gun Values "Grading Criteria" section, "...Some very old and/or very rare firearms are acceptable to collectors in almost any condition!"

 

[XxWINxX94]

A non-factory, after-market recoil pad will always diminish the resale value of any collectable shotgun. How much devaluation is open to debate but I would opine "fairly significantly", depending on the scarcity of the gun. Quoting from the Blue Book of Gun Values "Grading Criteria" section, "...Some very old and/or very rare firearms are acceptable to collectors in almost any condition!"

I see. This is basically what I assumed, however I'm not giving up. I'm going to try to search for a "Hawkins" brand recoil pad. If its just a Walmart product then I might forget about it. However, maybe this pad has some age to it and could add a little vintage touch to this shotgun.

Any opinions on that?
I'm going to look for a Hawkins brand recoil pad and see if they are of any significant age.

 

[SwampWolf]

I guess I'm not following you here. What is it about a Hawkins brand pad, even one "of any significant age", that would make it any better in terms of collector's value over any other after-market brand? Was the Hawkin brand (sorry, I'm betraying my ignorance here, as I've never heard of this brand ) originally a factory installed pad? And, if not, I can't imagine any after-market brand of recoil pad not having a significant deterioration effect on the resale value of a collector's grade shotgun.
Again, I may be missing your point entirely-it's happened before...

 

[XxWINxX94]

I guess what I was hoping for is that it could have been factory-installed, or maybe a factory option but I don't think thats the case at all. Hawkins still sells recoil pads, and i found a few that look just like the one on the gun. So that ends that, but I still am curious about the price, though. The guy would have taken $500, but the recoil pad and condition was the main deterrant from me purchasing it. Like I said above, there were minscule, if not any, case colors left on the side plates. However, the barrels were in pretty good condition along with the wood. I wish I could have written down the S/N on it because the blue book has all the years & numbers.

So now I guess my question is: Is a field grade L.C. Smith in fair condition worth $500? Blue book lists $500 for a gun in 20% condition. I'm also assuming the case-colors contribute to much of the % condition.
My intentions for this gun would be occasional shooting and possibly an investment. I know these older guns have a reputation for increasing in value over many years.

 

[451 Detonics]

The % in the Blue Book speaks to the total condition of the gun, not just one part. So if the bluing on the barrels is good and the wood is good it can easily be a 50-60% gun even with worn case colors.

Hawkins has been making pads for about as long as LC has been making shotgun...well maybe not that long but it could easily be a vintage pad. Unless the stock was cut when the pad was installed (not always the case) then it would have little impact on the value.

 

[XxWINxX94]

The % in the Blue Book speaks to the total condition of the gun, not just one part. So if the bluing on the barrels is good and the wood is good it can easily be a 50-60% gun even with worn case colors.

Exactly what I was thinking. BB has that whole PPGS(?) thing for determining the total % condition for older guns.

Hawkins has been making pads for about as long as LC has been making shotgun...well maybe not that long but it could easily be a vintage pad. Unless the stock was cut when the pad was installed (not always the case) then it would have little impact on the value.

Interesting.
I agree, if the stock was cut, then value would decrease. Now this kind of technicality intrigues me. So now I guess I will need to find the Length Of Pull for an L.C. Field grade, then if I encounter the gun again, measure the LOP to determine if it was cut or not.
So heres what I need to find out: What was the LOP on an L.C. Smith field grade? Was there different lengths, or 1 standard?

Going to try and find that out.

 

[SwampWolf]

Unless the stock was cut when the pad was installed (not always the case) then it would have little impact on the value.

This is true, but, unless the owner/shooter wanted a significantly longer length of pull than the original stock had, way more often than not shooters who have a pad installed after-market are more interested in reducing recoil than they are in altering the length of pull. And if the stock dimensions are not changed, the stock will have been cut in order to accomodate the inch or so width of the pad. And, as has been said, if the stock has been cut, the value of a collectable shotgun will be affected adversely.

So now I guess I will need to find the Length Of Pull for an L.C. Field grade, then if I encounter the gun again, measure the LOP to determine if it was cut or not.

This sounds like a good plan.

 

[XxWINxX94]

Here are some that I looked up. I can't seem to find a place that gives factory specs. on these guns.

http://gunroom.shootingsportsman.com/listing/1457
That one says 14'' even.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/L-C-Smith-Field-Grade-SxS-12-ga-.cfm?gun_id=100128956
Here is 14 & 3/4''

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=219732241
My local FFL has one that is 14 & 1/8''

So i guess if its anything considerably more or less than 14, it might be a no go.

 

[JohnBT]

Another thing to consider about these "collectible" shotguns when trying to figure what one is worth... they made a boat load of them.

"Brophy estimated that 141,844 Field Grades were manufactured accounting for about 80% of the total production of L.C. Smith shotguns during the period of 1913 to 1945."

www.lcsmith.org/shotguns/1913grades.html

"Production data by gauge are available for only the complete production period of Field Grade shotguns from 1913 to 1950. Those production figures are 1,223 10 gauge, 120,658 12 gauge, 40,667 16 gauge, 30,282 20 gauge, and 2,375 .410 shotguns."

 

[XxWINxX94]

I understand. Blue book has at least 196,000 Field Grades made during the 1913-1950 era. I guess this particular grade isn't the Cadillac of the bunch, but I like it and they don't make L.C.'s anymore, at least how they used to.

They aren't too expensive yet, and I'm hoping to pick up on one before they become entirely obsolete, or just not as common. The price was really what intrigued me on this one.