Competition to Supplement Training

[Old Dog]

Shucks -- missed that one! Was focused on the stance. Whoa Nelly, as Keith Jackson used to say .

And, uh, yeah ... I am a LE firearms instructor, and I've seen more weird stuff on the range than that particular photo. Getting muzzled by a 4'11" rookie female officer with her finger on the trigger of an off-safe 12-gauge with full-house 00-buck is more jolting than a Starbucks triple vente cappucino ...

 

[9mmepiphany]

But all you USPSA and IDPA guys go on convincing yourselves that you know what it's gonna be like to when you get in your first gunfight.

...the first time they've ever engaged in force on force training with Simunitions

I found my competition experience very helpful when I had my first Simunitions training. Being able to use a Flash Sight Picture, shoot without coming to a standstill, the ability to shoot from odd positions, and being able to put shots onto target at speed was a bit of an eye opener for the role players

but it's a little different when you're worried about a two-way affair

To paraphrase Yoda "Worry not, Do"...the difference is the aftereffect

 

[Old Dog]

I don't disagree with you. I'm not discounting the value of competition -- far from it. Shooting when one gets amped up and the adrenaline if flowing, even if it's for fun with no permanent consequences will certainly have benefits. BUT -- FoF training is even more beneficial, and I guess what I was trying to say (and said badly) was that if competition was the only framework one had for shooting when time and situational awareness becomes paramount, do not expect that experience to replicate, or fully prepare you for what it's like when you suddenly and unexpectedly figure out that the range has become two-way ...

What I was addressing was the expectation I've heard from some (not all) competition shooters that their experience and skills had fully prepared them for real-life gun fighting.

 

[9mmepiphany]

their experience and skills had fully prepared them for real-life gun fighting.

I agree with you on this.

There is an unfounded belief that what we do in competition reflects the real world...it doesn't. However I'd also say that even middle of the pack competition shooters and place better hits on target than most non-competing LE shooters. As a counter point, if anyone on the street used "cover" the way it is used in IDPA, it's going to be a very short exchange of gunfire

 

[George Dickel]

Whoa -- serious chicken wing in effect there.

Eh, I knew plenty of guys in the military, and more'n a few in law enforcement, that never competed in any gun games, but were fairly successful in real life lethal force encounters.

But all you USPSA and IDPA guys go on convincing yourselves that you know what it's gonna be like to when you get in your first gunfight.

On topic, I've enjoyed watching some gun game guys the first time they've ever engaged in force on force training with Simunitions. Timers and opponents are great for getting the adrenaline flowing and learning a bit about placing hits with some pressure on, but it's a little different when you're worried about a two-way affair.

In regards to your "more'n a few" that never completed in gun games, there are always exceptions to everything. A friend of mine never received any firearm instruction but was a natural marksman with rifle and pistol. He had excellent hand and eye coordination in everything he did. Most people have to train and train to be close to good.

How are you going to experience a two-way affair unless you have someone shooting back at you? I don't think many people would sign up for training involving someone shooting back at them and I don't think the graduation rate would be very high either. I spent 21 years in the Army and was lucky that I was never in combat but we trained for war. The vast majority of veterans never experienced someone shooting back at them until they were in the military in a combat area. I shoot pistol and rifle metallic shooting and no, there is nobody shooting back but I'm practicing and honing my shooting skills. Nobody knows what its like to get into their first gunfight but if you have practiced the shooting skills you at least know what to do with the firearm.

 

[GEM]

I don't know outside of my own group, but none of us thought that IDPA or USPSA was like a 'real' gun fight. We had plenty of combat veterans and law enforcement shooting with us, who had been through the real thing. Also, plenty of us had training from well known realistic training and FOF experience. Maybe we were the rarity but the more serious folks didn't have any illusions to reality. Cover - that's a joke and we all knew it.

Most of us said, our first response was to FLEE! I got 'killed' and some serious booboos in FOF.

 

[Jeff White]

I think that the "rift" is caused by those shooters who insist that their favorite gun game is training to fight. As I pointed out in an earlier post, training to fight is a multi-disciplined program where competition can play an integral part. However competition is not required to be part of the program as long as the program provides sufficient training and practice on the skills that are honed in competition.

 

[Zerodefect]

Vaporware. Where exactly is this ''program'' at?

Finding decent training at all, is hard as heck. A monthly tactical program.......yeah sure.

Being that shooting and moving is a perishable skill, and tactics mostly aren't, I don't see how people can be so quick to disregard competition. You ain't going to push your limits on a static range. And someone else sets up the range for you. Can't beat that for $20.

 

[Jeff White]

Vaporware. Where exactly is this ''program'' at?

There are plenty of programs in LE and the military. The private citizen has to create their own. There is plenty of good training out there, unfortunately you have to seek it out. I'd recommend Andrew Branca or Mas Ayoob for the training in the law pertaining to the use of deadly force. Gunsite offers a progressive program in various disciplines, handguns, shotguns, carbines and precision rifles. There are good itinerant trainers who will bring their program to you if you sponsor a class or who may already be conducting a class near you. Good FoF training is somewhat harder to find in the private sector but it is there. We have a member here, Strambo who was running a very good program using simunitions.

Being that shooting and moving is a perishable skill, and tactics mostly aren't, I don't see how people can be so quick to disregard competition. You ain't going to push your limits on a static range. And someone else sets up the range for you. Can't beat that for $20.

What kind of professional instruction do you get when you shoot in a match? Does a professional instructor who knows who diagnose problems and what actions to take to correct them watch you and mentor you, or are you on your own, picking up things by observing other shooters? I'm not disregarding competition, I'm just very realistic about what you can get from it. It is great practice for some skills. It's also great motivation to practice on your own. But it's not a replacement for good professional instruction.

 

[Hangingrock]

Is firearms training for the citizen that is non Lawenforcment and or Military still a cottage industry, or are there standards such as skill levels of accreditation??? Organizational standards transferable from one training facility,methodology to another?

 

[Jeff White]

Unfortunately it's very much a "buyer beware" market for private sector training.

 

[bdickens]

I believe the OP is about competition to supplement training, not to substitute for it.

 

[GEM]

I do think that competition is good motor memory practice for basic skills of the draw, sighting, manipulation of the gun, firing efficiently with some accuracy. Thus, I've not been a fan of the USPSA sci-fi level specialized guns and always shot something that I could realistically carry. My carry belt was also realistic and not the Batman level utility strap on belts. My goal was good skills. I'm too old and slow to win but I have come in repeatedly in the tops in accuracy. If I could shoot my AR (in a carbine match) or my 1911, Glock and / or revolver and only be 10 points down, that was a good day. Had a few 3 points down days - meaning with about 40 to 50 targets I was out the zero zone only three times.

I am lucky enough to be able to attend some of the best civilian FOF. Sat at a table with the Marine colonel in charge of their firearms training program at our AAR report dinner. I do get hurt at good FOF as a natural consequence of intensive action. Airsoft hurts in the close in ambush, bailing out of a truck onto the gravel, hurts. Nothing like the real thing, of course but it gets your attention.

Screw up your response to a jewelry store robbery and the nice young lady is the hidden accomplice of the crook who then shoots you in the back with sims, close up. Ouch. That's a touch different from competition.

As I said before, explain the rainbow bruises at a liberal arts college was interesting.

 

[somethingbenign]

As I said before, explain the rainbow bruises at a liberal arts college was interesting.

Just hand them a copy of 50 Shades of Grey and say nothing...

 

[BCC1]

I discovered steel challenge competitions about a year ago through the auspices of a highly proficient neighbor. Previously, I thought my skills were adequate, based on my monthly visits to an indoor range, shooting at single, stationary paper targets.

Nope.

What I’ve learned the past year, with extremely helpful teaching, about all aspects of fast, accurate shooting, including draw, grip, reaction time, target acquisition, body position, trigger control, muscle memory, etc, etc, is really quite stunning.

Is any of this real life? Well, not directly, I suppose. But a lot of the practice, dry firing, and technique makes it second nature.

I also shoot a Defensive League, that includes conceal carry, movement and different situations every time.

I’m a heck of a lot better shooter now, but with admittedly room for significant improvement, still. If I had spent as much time instead on golf I’d be a darn good player. Nah, this is more fun.

I use a stock Legion 320 with a dot. I practice with iron sights, too.